Talk: Shadow Moses Island

Proper Page layout

This is the layout that was needed, with the DOCK as being the example Sure, there is no description/ legende, but who really need it/ care? Those descriptions were even a bit problematical (how to explain in an "inner view" that TTS is the remake?), so it might avoid any issue.

Docks Example
A small port located within a cavern on the south of the island used for the transfer of cargo. An elevator to the north of the dock leads up to the island's heliport.

No more button "add to the gallery", no more extra spacing between pictures, Possibility to put 5 or even 10 pics on the same line...

Dock example with 6 pics on the same line (Hard to distinguish anything, but just for showing purpose):

Isn't that just too easy? --Golden Specter (talk) 19:42, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

This page does need some cleaning up. I do agree that layout looks much better than what is currently in the article. However, I think there has to be a limit to how many images there are. An example would be six images of the essential features of each area from MGS1. I don't think we need TTS photos just for comparison, or "before and after" photos from both MGS1 and MGS4, as they do not seem important for an "in-universe" article of Shadow Moses.

Another example is to have a separate article that is devoted completely to images, which would be linked to this article, as we do need to keep this page primarily as a text-oriented article for reading.

--Bluerock (talk) 22:15, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

I think that the idea of using a brand new article just for pictures will be the best solution. People who search for text based informations won't be bothered by those pics, and people who search for some pics won't have to scroll down countless of textual information just to find those visual informations! But then, there is no point to remove TTS & MGS4, at least that's what I think. --Golden Specter (talk) 06:29, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a new article sounds like the way to go, so we can put everything on there. In fact there has been a similar discussion about doing this for other articles that have a very high number of images associated with them. We can then just include a select few on the main Shadow Moses page to complement the text descriptions and avoid clutter. If you're confident in setting up a new page for this, then by all means, please do so. Otherwise I can do this later on today. --Bluerock (talk) 15:55, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

I've started working on the new page, so it should be up shortly. --Bluerock (talk) 17:51, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Great, I wasn't aware of this discussion. Your work is very good so far, I think that I'll be able to enhance the gallery page when It will be online (I don't see it for now. You can also just "transfer" those gallery into a new page, and I'll take care about the layout) EDIT: Okay, now I see it xD I'll take care later or tomorrow :) --Golden Specter (talk) 21:24, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Shadow Moses Island Images.

There are now some images from MGS4 of Shadow Moses Island.

There already were images of Shadow Moses from MGS4. We did not need more. --Fantomas 12:55, February 24, 2010 (UTC)Ok thats fine then Kennedy 3421 10:23, March 9, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 Why can't there be some more images from MGS4 ?Kennedy 3421 11:55, March 28, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

Why have the Images of Snake removed? Kennedy 3421 02:38, April 29, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

Here's why: they were not needed, we have enough pictures here as it is. More reasons: The first was an image we basically already have, of the "front" of the facility, except it had Snake in the Assassin garb slap-bang in the middle of it, making it look horrible and un-professional. The second was of the snowfield, but it had been taken when a blizzard had hit, making it essentially an image of pure white, again with Snake in the Assassin garb slap-bang in the middle of it, making it look horrible and un-professional. I don't know what your obsession is with thinking we need more pictures of Shadow Moses, but we don't. The page is fine. --Fantomas 06:04, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ok I was trying to help this encyclopedia I am not Obsessed with these Images. Its When I got Metal Gear Solid 4 I was Disappointed with this page not having the proper information or sources about the game. It frustrated me because this encyclopedia was where I learned several things about Metal Gear Solid 4 Ok then if we do not need the pictures that fine then. I was just trying to help and yet I get into trouble for that. I thought having a image of Snake would help the page. Im sorry about the trouble caused. Kennedy 3421 05:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Whitmore 8621

Fanatomas last year this page was nothing until I decided to fix it up with more detail the main MGS4 Shadow Moses image, I took that image myself and took it off the PS3 and used uploaded because this encyclopedia had losts of missing information and junk in my opinon. Such as using that codec image from the Metal Gear 2 non canon image of Solid Snake looking like Mel Gibson.

So in other words if it were not for me, in some ways this web site would be not where it is today. Kennedy 3421 05:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

I added 1920*1080 HD pictures of Shadow Moses from Metal Gear Solid 4. Do NOT remove them please. It is needed for many people who want to see what has changed between the original version (MGS) and the MGS4 version. Also, it's more logical to have pictures when you speak about locations from a game...

Speaking about a game without showing pictures make no sens. Yoann718 09:06, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

We do need more location shots. The reason there are so few is due to the difficulty of getting decent quality images. Images showing Life Guages, Soliton Radars, and Snake standing right in the centre of certain shots, may need replacing as they don't necessarily look that good in the main article. Some also need reorganizing for the sake of presentation and avoiding clutter. Therefore, don't be too offended if these images are replaced in the future. --Bluerock 09:38, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

It would be better if images were taken in First Person view--Soul reaper 09:45, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, of course it will be better to take them in First Person view or without all those GUI.

But how can I have a decent First Person view? With the camera, there is still all those GUI.

Maybe if I take them with the camera, and then I'll "take a screenshot" with the PS3 XMB?

Let me try that, and if it's working great, I'll change all those pictures ;)

And by the way, how to suppress pictures I've uploaded here? Or they will always remain on the wiki?

Yoann718 09:56, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

For the time being, you can go to the image's page and select upload new version of file. The older photo can be deleted later if necessary. Although not perfect, the MGS4 in-game camera won't display any GUI when you take a shot, but an MGS4 logo will be placed in the bottom right hand corner. --Bluerock 10:26, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Everything will be fixed now :)

1920*1080p HD pictures from the Camera, without MGS4 logo.

And you can request any kind of picture in my talk page ^_^.Yoann718 11:05, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Much appreciated. --Bluerock 11:25, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Frozen Lake

According to the MGS4 integral podcasts, there was originally supposed to be a frozen lake with gekko patrolling on top. This lead to the canyon via the rout in the rocks, but was cut from the final game. That should explain the blocked off path on the east side of the canyon.

Shadow Moses Island Image

Hey Bluerock,

Can i ask where you got the image of Shadow Moses?

Thanks

BillyKid1234

It is from the Briefing tape in MGS1. --Bluerock 10:32, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for using my screenshot Bluerock. I thought i recognised it. :-)

BillyKid1234 5:51pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)

Thanks for taking it. It took a while to locate a good shot of the island itself. --Bluerock 17:24, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Your welcome. I'll be happy to take any more screenshots if any one has any requests.

BillyKid1234 7:00pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)

Again, too many photos

Too many photos in such a small space.

Indeed. Some of the more extraneous imagery can be placed into a gallery instead. --Bluerock 17:24, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the current number of images, I am considering removing a large number of them from the page, categorizing them, and adding a link to all these Shadow Moses images. Having numerous galleries throughout the page really disrupts the presentation and makes it difficult to read through. There will be images throughout the page, within the text, but only the necessary amount to illustrate the information given. A small gallery can be placed at the bottom, but again not overly large. --Bluerock 18:12, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I never intended to upload them in order to put them on a separated gallery. I don't see what is so disturbing, but if people will see it, good for them. Now I won't upload pictures anymore ^_^ Yoann718 04:11, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Bluerock. The page has way more images than it needs. There's not reason to having three pictures of a forklift, let alone the same forklift. Not to mention that if there is a page to a vehicle, eg Metal Gear REX, the images should be placed there, with only one image placed on this article. I'm thinking we should look into creating gallery pages like they do on some other wikis.--Soul reaper 04:40, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

"Don't put pictures with Snake's life, with Snake itself, because it's an article about the Island", "Don't put in-univers and out-univers info, it's a wiki rule" (which is not the case in many wiki, like FF or any other), and now "don't put too much pictures"? Wow ^_^

I was just uploading lot of pictures for fan people who wanted to see very clearly those 3D models, with high quality pictures. There is no point for YOU to see 3 pics of the forklift, but there may be a point to see them for someone else.

But now I understand, I won't upload pictures anymore, just to see them in a dusty gallery, cutted from their context and from an explanation within an article which speak about a GAME island (a such article without many pictures doesn't make sens).

See you.

Bye :) Yoann718 04:45, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to stop uploading images, you've done a terrific job and uploaded images that this wiki really needed. I sincerely hope you're not leaving just because of this. You have to understand that we need to find a balance between clearly illustrating and cluttering the pages. Truth be told I don't think any of us have truly found a solution to this.--Soul reaper 05:03, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I understand that this wiki need a clear article, which could be understood and read comfortably, and I was going to find more solutions to improve this, while keeping as much pictures as I could upload in this article for a better understanding (again, it's a game, therefore the visual aspect is truly important, especially in a "location" page.).

However, I'll cesse pics uploading because of a simple fact: I don't intend to spend a lot of time for an article and for placing pictures which will be finally moved in a dust covered Gallery that many people won't even look at.

It's all simple as that. I understand all those rules in this wiki, and I'm glad to see how much rules there is. But when I don't like them, I leave :) Yoann718 05:29, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

We could find a way of maintaining most of the images; we just need it to look a bit tidier, perhaps reformatting or restructuring the image galleries themselves. I would rather you remain a collaborator in these discussions, Yoann, as you have provided some good quality images, but a temporary cessation of uploads might help in the long run. Once we establish a good solution, some more images would be welcomed. --Bluerock 08:04, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

What if we made a sectioned gallery on the page? Similar to what we've started doing on the game pages. We add the images to their corresponding subsection, eg. images of the dock section go to the dock area of the gallery section. If the gallery section becomes too large we could try putting an overflow div tag on the gallery that would allow us to constrain the section to a certain side and let you scoll to see the rest. That way we'd cut down the clutter, keep the images organized and keep them on the page.--Soul reaper 12:47, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. We can still have token images to illustrate the text as normal, but having the bulk of the images grouped together in one gallery, orgainized in different sections, could work. Is there a page that has an example of a gallery with an overflow div tag, just to see how it looks? --Bluerock 14:53, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here's an example on Okami Wiki. We can of course alter the size to suit our needs.--Soul reaper 15:05, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

That does look a lot better than a huge section of images. In fact, I think we should add this tag to the multiple galleries as they are now, to see how it looks, before considering the single gallery option. This could be a good compromise. --Bluerock 17:48, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Blast Furnace

Is that really the official line, that they built an entire foundry on Shadow Moses so they could fabricate production materials on-site? If so, this must be a pretty magical foundry if it doesn't need more raw material than it can output processed material; you'd actually need to ship more tonnage of iron ore than if you were shipping pre-made steel (or are we supposed to believe Shadow Moses has it's own mining operation, too?). And that's quite apart from the issue of building an entire foundry, manning it and powering it when you could just use those shipments to drop bundles of spare girders off. It strikes me as one of those cases where they try to explain something silly (why there's pits of molten metal in the base) and end up with something even more inexplicable than they started with. Evil Tim 07:41, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

It is indeed the official line, given in MGS1, and reiterated in the MGS4 Database. I'll post the relevant radio conversation. --Bluerock 08:36, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Soman gas color Codec.

Okay, I'm trying to find the Codec where (I think) Nastasha Romanenko explains to Snake about the various types of gas used to secure areas, as well as that the terrorists most likely dyed the gas color (its pure form being colorless and odorless) to make it easier to detect a leak, but I can't seem to get the Codec, especially not in Hal's lab. Can someone tell me where to find it? Weedle McHairybug 22:43, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Merge "Areas" and "Behind the scene"

It doesn't really make sens to have both sections which are talking about the same thing.

We can explain every change of differents areas in the "area section", rather than giving another section for it.Yoann718 13:12, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

The areas section basically talks about the various locations on Shadow Moses Island, as well as when Snake went to these facilities in general. The behind the scenes section was more in reference to differences not only in time, but also between Metal Gear Solid and Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes. That's a pretty big difference, so no, it shouldn't be merged. Weedle McHairybug 13:20, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I already know what the "Behind the scenes" section is talking about...

But I think it's just two sections which speak about the same things, areas of the game and history plus different versions of the same areas, should be merged. It still doesn't make sens to leave two sections like that. But if no one agree, then I leave as it is now.Yoann718 13:26, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

For this Wiki, the subjects are mainly written from an "in-universe" perspective, with gameplay, game staff, and "making-of" info placed in "Behind the scenes." In this article, the "areas" section is part of the former, and should ideally discuss the purpose of those locations and what occured within them, in terms of the story. The "Behind the scenes" section should only discuss how the areas' cosmetic designs have changed between games, and should, ideally, not be reiterating the same information. Having said that, they might need a little improvement to make this more clear. --Bluerock 14:57, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Therefore, I think we just need to remove every picture on the "Areas" location which show the area, and make a complete section of "Behind the Scenes" with all pictures and all locations available in every Metal Gear Solid game. Some Behind the Scenes pictures should be placed in area too, since they speak about the history or they don't really show to environment itself (I think about the crashed Hind D, which is a part of the story). Finally, we should find other names than "Differences between games" and "area".

"Area" section assume that we'll talk about 3D models and appearance. However, it's only history... I think it should be improved, like this:

== History ==

=== Metal Gear Solid ===

-> We'll speak about docks, heliport, etc. without making a section for any area, while keeping all pictures and explanations. we can make "chapters", rather than sections by area names.

== Behind the Scenes ==

=== Areas/ 3D Models/ Locations (choose the best) ===

Then, users will understand how different those sections are, and the idea of merging them won't even come to our mind =)

Yoann718 15:13, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe change "areas" to a general section discussing the warhead disposal facility, and its functions, as there's still quite a bit of info on the seperate locations within. Move the natural features like canyons and snowfields, to a seperate section discussing the geographical environment. Then, info on Snake's mission in each area be incoporated into the "history." Caution should be taken though, so that it is not simply a rehash of the Shadow Moses Incident article. We should have some good images throughout the article, but perhaps use the majority of location shots for the comparison between game 3D models.

==History==

Keep as is, and add Snake's mission info from different areas; avoid too much detail

==Geography==

==Disposal facility==

Keep main facility info, describing function and purpose of the seperate areas as in-universe. Scrap event info between games.

===Vehicles===

as is

==Wildlife==

as is

==Behind the scenes==

as is

===3D environment changes (or something similar)===

changes in 3d location models between games, perhaps majority of images here from the different games.

Just an idea. --Bluerock 15:45, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I think the section "3D environment" don't have to tell "changes".

It's not only about comparison, but it's more about presenting each location in every Metal Gear Solid.

"Changes" seems like we'll only talk about what is different from a version to another, while "3D environments" will seems like we'll present the environments, and of course we'll speak about all changes made from a version to another.Yoann718 16:05, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Now, hwo to do with a real example: the Cargo Dock.

"A small port located within a cavern on the south of the island used for the transfer of cargo. An elevator to the north of the dock leads up to the island's heliport.

In 2005, Solid Snake infiltrated the island's disposal facility via the cargo dock. In addition, Liquid Snake sent several Genome soldiers to guard the cargo dock prior to leaving in a Hind D to take down some F-16s, anticipating Snake's arrival via the area"

We can see two parts here, one speaking about the environment itself, and the other speaking about the story.

We can move the first paragraph to the "3D environment" from the ==behind the scenes==, while keeping the second paragraph for the story.

I think it's the best thing to do at the momentYoann718 16:10, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Well, its clear that there is no stopping you, Yoann718. Do what you wish, seeing how I'm in no position to stop you anyways. However, if you're going to move the environment stuff, can you at least not move the environment stuff where the environmental factors are stated in-universe (ie, the labs and the underground base or, well, any of the environmental descriptions of the areas that cite codec calls/dialogue stated in the game)? Weedle McHairybug 21:47, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I will only move descriptions that don't have any history related part, and which only describe the environment itself. Also, we'll need to modify a lot of descriptions.

Because the 3D Environment don't have to speak about the story itself, but just about the enviornments (what is present in this area? Differences between MGS, MGS TTS and MGS4? Etc.)

For example, the "Cave" description don't have any story related part:

A small cave providing passage between the 1st floor basement of the nuclear warhead storage building and the underground passage leading to the communication towers. The cave was inhabited by wolf dogs.

Whereas the Snowfield have only a story and not even an environment description:

In 2005, Sniper Wolf battled Snake here for the second time. Nine years later, Wolf's doppelgänger...

We'll also need to change many descriptions in the "3D Environment" section, which are not so clear.

In the snowfield, for example:

There is no cargo truck in the area North of Comm Tower B.

What does that mean? They speak about MGS4? It's false in every way ^_^

Or in the Lab:

The supercomputers in Hal Emmerich's old office now have transparent covers and a green illumination.

They speak about MGS4 of course, but it's not clear for the reader.

By the way, I decided to move the 3D Environment stuff and not to leave it under the "Behind the scenes", it make more sens to me, since it's not really related to "behind the scenes". We speak about in-game stuff, not about development related stuff nor Beta versions of those areas.

Yoann718 07:12, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Fine. Go ahead and move the 3D Environment stuff if you want. Besides, I felt the moving of various environmental descriptions of the areas to behind the scenes was a big mistake, seeing how most, if not all of those environmental descriptions were stated in-game. If it was to be moved anywhere, it would have been the trivia section, since at least that section deals with in-universe info. Behind the scenes sections are supposed to be used for out-of-universe info, not in-universe info. Weedle McHairybug 08:42, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it is a mistake, since I didn't intended to move descriptions related to the story itself.

And I don't really understand why you want to stay so much in "out-of-univers info" in the environment description. I won't place story related stuff, but if there is something to say about the terrorist in any description part, we will say it. And as of now, it's not in the "Behind the scenes" section, therefore there is no need to separate so much these informations. But I already explained what I intended to do with those descriptions.Yoann718 08:47, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Well, for starters, if the environmental factors are actually commented upon in-game, either by cutscenes (such as the underground passageway being built as an alternate route to the communications tower due to the presence of glaciers above the area), or in Codec conversations (for example, Otacon's explaination about why there were two cargo elevators in the Underground Base or the location of the Warehouse), it is in-universe. Out-of-universe material entails stuff like graphic enhancements, gameplay mechanics, or, under certain cases, conversations that directly relate to gameplay (ie, references to the control scheme of the controller in certain codec conversations or instances of breaking the fourth wall).

In addition, there is still one more thing you might need to consider about the 3D Environments. They have to be written in in-universe style (eg, it should not use game titles when referencing the changes between MGS/TTS and MGS4), so any bulletpoints that actually refer to the changes by game titles or anything that suggests it was written in an out-of-universe style either needs to be rewritten to be in-universe, or moved to behind the scenes, which allows for out-of-universe info. Weedle McHairybug 08:56, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, do you really want to make ANOTHER "3D Environment" section which will describe ALL changes? It just doesn't really make sens. It's a wiki which speak about a game, and every "in-game" information is written like a paragraph which describ the environment. Every point will be "out-of-univers" stuff related. I think it's better to keep like that, if not, it will be a real pain to read everything and to navigate from section to section which will speak about the same place.

So the reader will have the description AND every change made to the area in the same place. It's not a guide nor a manual. It's a wiki which will speak both about in-game stuff and out-game stuff.Yoann718 09:05, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Don't ask me, I never made the rules. If you really want to find out the difference between in-universe and out-of-universe style, try asking Bluerock or another high-level user such as Soul Reaper/Omega Fighter/whoever, because I tried to explain it myself, and its becoming apparent that that might not be the perfect definition, regardless of how sound it is. Weedle McHairybug 09:11, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

In a wiki you should separate information based not only on subject matter, but also presentation. We treat certain sections as though it's an in-universe encyclopedia, everything is presented as though the game world is the real world. In the Behind the scenes we talk from an out of universe perspective. With the knowledge that it's a game. The two sections should remain separate. We should NOT have a section that talks about a subject in both a in-universe and out of universe manner. That's not only confusing, but also inconsistent.--Soul reaper 09:14, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

...Okay, I don't find it so much logical, but since it's the rules...

Therefore, 3D Environment such be considered as "Behind the scenes" stuff, but I don't want to put them into this section. Maybe we should give a new name, which will show that we're speaking from this "out-of-univers" perspective, perhaps something like "3D Environment models"? Of course, every description will still remain...

And every related story part in the Area section should be merged with "Shadow Moses Incident" instead of being here. Then, the Shadow Moses Incident will be able to give an "in-univers" perspective to all those areas. Yoann718 09:26, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, if we merged the story descriptions in the area section with the Shadow Moses Incident summary, it's probably going to be somewhat long. I guess we could make separate articles on those areas. It worked with Tselinoyarsk, San Hieronymo Peninsula, Costa Rica/Nicaragua, the Middle East, South America, and Eastern Europe. That way, we can keep the area descriptions as is, and at the same time not have to worry about 3D Environmental Models/out-of-universe info and/or consistency. Weedle McHairybug 09:38, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, I never wanted to merge the story AND the description together. The fact is that I just want to leave this kind of description, for example with the Docks:

A small port located within a cavern on the south of the island used for the transfer of cargo. An elevator to the north of the dock leads up to the island's heliport.

While keeping the differences between MGS, MGS TTS and MGS4.

Of course, story related description should be separated from the 3D Environment section, description such as this one:

In 2005, Solid Snake infiltrated the island's disposal facility via the cargo dock. In addition, Liquid Snake sent several Genome soldiers to guard the cargo dock prior to leaving in a Hind D to take down some F-16s, anticipating Snake's arrival via the area.

Now, if you want to keep this here, it's alright, but then, it need to be greatly improved, and the name, sub-name have to change (we should then change "area" to something which will suit more to a story description related, and not putting every sub-name which will come directly from areas names.)

I think it's the main problem with this article, since it looks like there is two sections with the same structure. The reader won't be able to distinguish quickly between "Area" and "3D Environment" section...Yoann718 09:49, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the game designs of the environments, it is only the changes between games that are really being commented on. This refers very much to the designers' "behind the scenes" work. This cannot really be confused with information regarding each facility's purpose (storywise) on the island, as told in-game. I think the reason for your confusion is that the changes are listed by each game environment, giving it a very similar structure, but this is the simplest way of doing so. Mixing the two together would be a mistake, and it is likely to lead to further confusion. The areas section really only needs restructuring and reorganizing, so that it doesn't look like a list of the different game areas, and so it can be better distinguished. --Bluerock 12:39, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

So how all this should be done?

What is with the 3D Environment section? Where the pictures must be?

Is this a good structure:

== 3D Environments (or another name) ==

=== Cave ===

A small cave providing passage between the 1st floor basement of the nuclear warhead storage building and the underground passage leading to the communication towers. The cave was inhabited by wolf dogs.

// Gallery MGS, MGS TTS, MGS 4

== Behind the Scenes ==

=== 3D Environments Changes ===

==== Caves ====

[] In MGS4, this area is inaccessible.

// No pictures

Yoann718 12:55, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Someone will need to suppress/ move every information in the current "Area" section, since I don't want to take them into my 3D Environment Section (I'll only speak about the location itself, not the story.).

You can take it to the Shadow Moses Incident article, since here, we speak only about the Island itself, rather than the scenario. Same with every related picture from MGS Scenario.

ThanksYoann718 17:56, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest the following:

== Facilities and natural formations (or another name; "3D environment" makes little sense from an "in-universe" perspective) ==

=== Cave ===

A small cave providing passage between the 1st floor basement of the nuclear warhead storage building and the underground passage leading to the communication towers. The cave was inhabited by wolf dogs.

// Pics from MGS, MGS TTS, MGS 4 (no mention of game titles, in keeping with the "in-universe" perspective; mention the source of the images on their individual pages for the interest of the reader)

== Behind the scenes ==

=== 3D environment changes between games===

==== Cave ====

[] In MGS4, this area is inaccessible.

// Only pictures that directly illustrate the changes being discussed

--Bluerock 18:02, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Further changes are needed (regarding the sheer amount of images now on the page) but we'll take it one step at a time. --Bluerock 18:02, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Understood. For MGS4 it's easy, we can just replace it by "in 2014" :)

For MGS TTS, what do you think of "another view of ..."? Or if you have another suggestion?

We can also not even mention any change, but people will already know that it's two different versions :)Yoann718 18:30, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

The games tend to favour the PlayStation depictions (MGS4 flashbacks), so maybe we can remove the TTS pics for now. They can always be returned once a suitable solution is thought of. I would rather get the overall structure finalized first. See the "Too many images" discussion above, for my thoughts on the numerous galleries on the page. By reducing the images, we need only use the PlayStation images when necessary, and readers can have easy access to the entire image collection, if they desire to see visual comparisons between TTS and the original MGS. --Bluerock 18:54, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think we can make a "Facilities"/ "Locations"/ "Areas" section in the main article Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes and put all those pictures there if you want.

By the way, I think all other pictures should still remain here (like all MGS4 pictures and every MGS picture I'll upload) since it's an article about a place, it must have many pictures.Yoann718 19:10, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Checking Informations...

It is said "Forklift (2)".

The first Forklift is on the Dock area, but where is the second forklift?Yoann718 05:16, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think I saw the second forklift in the Dock area. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

But it is the first one... (the one I have pictures from it) So where is the second one exactly? in a cut-scene?Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, I made a mistake when I added it in. I also made sure I deleted it. Weedle McHairybug 09:08, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks :) Yoann718 12:57, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should create a "Genome Soldier" or an "Enemy" section, which will suit well to this article.Yoann718 06:10, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

We already have articles for Genome Soldier and Enemy Soldiers. Besides which, the article was intended for the island in general, not for when it was under siege by the Sons of Big Boss terrorist group or when Liquid Ocelot invaded the place. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

We can't really separate the Island and the time when it was under siege by the terrorist group.Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I guess you're right. If it really is that needed, add it in, although you might have to ask Bluerock for permission before doing so. Weedle McHairybug 09:08, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

The "Hind D" must appear in the Vehicle Section tooYoann718 06:10, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, no. The vehicle section was only intended for vehicles that were already present on the island before the terrorist takeover. The Hind D obviously wasn't present before the terrorist takeover (the terrorists owned it from the start, and it wasn't even belonging to them so much as the Gurlukovich Mercenaries). That's also the reason why we aren't listing the Gekkos or the Scarabs under the vehicle articles. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

There is a problem with this. How to know if the M548/M1015 Full Tracked Cargo Vehicles was there before? Same with the Jeep, the snowmobile, the forklift. And Metal Gear Rex...

So I really think the Hind D should be placed here. if not, it's like something is missing.Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

You do have a point in regards to the snowmobile and possibly the jeeps, but you're forgetting that the entire reason why the Shadow Moses facility was even built was to develop Metal Gear REX (it's commented in-game), so it fits. As for the M548/M1015 Full Tracked Cargo Vehicles and forklifts, for the latter vehicle, I think the mere fact that it was present in the Cargo Dock would be more than enough to imply that it was at least present before the terrorist takeover (the Cargo Dock had to be used before the terrorist takeover, after all), and the M548/M1015s I think were commented to have been used before the terrorist takeover. I'll probably note the Hind if it is really important, but only under the condition that it is also to be noted that it was utilized by the terrorists only, and that it was not part of the island's arsenal before the takeover. Weedle McHairybug 09:08, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Bottom Gallery

Most of the images don't need to be there, they'd make more sense in the Shadow Moses Incident article. If no one objects, I will remove them from the page.--Soul reaper 07:20, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Same with many pictures in the "Area" section.

Also, the whole story in the Area section should be placed in the "Shadow Moses Incident" article, instead of staying here. However, a little summary of the "Shadow Moses Incident" can still remain here.Yoann718 07:32, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I've moved the images into a gallery on the Incident page. Some of them will likely be put into different sections of the article as well. Why they were here in the first place, I have no idea.--Soul reaper 07:40, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Probably a mistake from someone ^_^

I think we should refer to the "Shadow Moses Incident" and every other event in the introduction of this article. It should avoid confusions as well as mistakes Yoann718 07:42, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

AREAS SECTION TEMPORARY HERE

Sorry, but I can't work with this on the Shadow Moses Island article. It's too much confusion. All these informations need to go on the Shadow Moses Incident article. Please put them correctly in the Shadow Moses Incident article, because the structure doesn't match to the Shadow Moses Incident one. Thanks ^_^ .Yoann718 18:17, October 3, 2011 (UTC) Oh, and the 3D Environment section is now the Areas section ;-}

Areas

Cargo dock

Solid Snake surfacing from the water near the dock.

In 2005, Solid Snake infiltrated the island's disposal facility via the cargo dock. In addition, Liquid Snake sent several Genome soldiers to guard the cargo dock prior to leaving in a Hind D to take down some F-16s, anticipating Snake's arrival via the area.

Heliport

In 2005, the Sons of Big Boss used the heliport to dock a Mi-24 Hind D gunship, provided by the Gurlukovich Mercenaries. In 2014, Snake entered the area through a hole in the wall that connected to a snowfield.

Solid Snake at the heliport in Metal Gear Solid.

Liquid prepares to take off in a Hind D from the heliport.

The front of the tank hangar at Shadow Moses, as well as the heliport.

Tank hangar

In 2005, Solid Snake was forced to enter the tank hangar via the ventilation ducts, as the main door had been sealed due to the blizzard outside. The ventilation duct was also left open in order to spray for rats.

In 2014, Snake was able to access the hangar directly through the door, as it had been left open after the facility had been abandoned.

Holding cells (B1)

Snake meets Donald Anderson within the tank hangar's holding cells.

Located in the east section of the 1st floor basement of the tank hangar, the holding cells were used for the temporary confinement of base personnel as short term punishment for minor offences. It was also adjacent to the medical facility. It contained two cells, a bathroom, and an office that was presumably used as a prisoner registration area/guard post.

In 2005, the Sons of Big Boss used the holding cells to imprison their hostages, along with those soldiers who refused to participate in their revolt. It was here that Solid Snake met Decoy Octopus (disguised as the DARPA Chief) and Meryl Silverburgh, sneaking into the former's cell via the ventilation shafts that were left open in order for the personnel to start spraying for rats. Snake later returned here after escaping from the medical facility, although he also had to avoid some gun cameras that had been recently installed into the area near the elevator.

Medical room (B1)

Liquid scolds Ocelot for the death of the DARPA chief.

Located to the west of the 1st floor basement of the tank hangar (adjacent to the holding cells), the medical room was used to provide healthcare and patient treatment for base personnel. It also contained a single room besides the medical lab itself, which was primarily where a patient is to stay at.

In 2005, Revolver Ocelot placed his electrical torture machine within the medical room, in order to extract information from the terrorists' hostages. It was also the place where he ended up murdering Donald Anderson and concealing it as a botched torture session. Solid Snake himself was later tortured and imprisoned within the medical room.

Armory (B2)

Solid Snake traversing through the armory (main hallways)

Snake avoids IR sensors in the armory with thermal goggles to acquire a PSG-1.

The armory was used for the storage of weapons and ammunition, located in the 2nd floor basement of the tank hangar. There were originally going to be renovations to the armory, but it was postponed due to the terrorist attack, thus leaving unpainted areas that could be used to detect weakened walls. The main portions of the armory were rooms that contained fragmentation grenades, C4, FAMAS (both the gun and the ammunition), Nikita missiles (ammunition and weapon), and a PSG-1, along with SOCOM ammunition. In addition, there were some areas beyond the walls that contained a support pillar as well as two rooms beyond the passageway in a weakened wall that contained various fenced off equipment that presumably were generators for the ventilation shaft, as they were connected to the ventilation shafts, as well as some Stinger missiles and a digital camera. Pit traps were also utilized within the main armory area. The various rooms also forbade smoking.

In 2005, Solid Snake battled with Revolver Ocelot to the armory's south, in order to rescue the ArmsTech President.

Canyon

In 2005, Snake fought and disabled one of the base's M1A1 Abrams tanks within the canyon, which was operated by Vulcan Raven and two Genome Soldiers.

Snake crawling through the snowfield to avoid setting off Claymore mines.

Vulcan Raven piloting the M1 Abrams in the canyon to face Snake.

Nuclear warhead storage building

In 2005, Snake was restricted from using weapons in the warhead storage area by his internal nanomachines, due to the risk of igniting any leaking radioactive material. By 2014, the nuclear warheads had been removed from the missiles by the U.S. Government due to the sinking of the Fox Islands.

Western Labs (B2)

The hallway leading from the western labs, strewn with the corpses of Genome Soldiers killed by Gray Fox.

In 2005, a large portion of the lab was laced with poison gas (organophosphate nerve agents such as Soman) by the Sons of Big Boss during the Shadow Moses Incident, in order to prevent Dr. Emmerich from escaping in case he managed to evade the guards.The gas was also colored yellow to make it easier for personnel to detect if there was a leak (as organophosphate nerve agents in their pure form are colorless and odorless) Solid Snake had to utilize a remote-control Nikita missile to blow up the generator and deactivate the electric floor so he can freely access Otacon's lab. Gray Fox also slaughtered the six-man unit stationed inside the hallway shortly before Snake arrived. Nine years later, Snake had to traverse through this area in order to get to Dr. Hal Emmerich's lab in order to activate the doors on the first floor of the Warhead Storage Building to access the Snowfield.

Dr. Hal Emmerich's lab (B2)

In 2005, Emmerich was confined to his lab by the Sons of Big Boss in order to continue his research on Metal Gear. After his life was threatened by the Cyborg Ninja, he was rescued by Snake, who proceeded to battle and defeat the ninja in unarmed combat. Nine years later, Snake returned to the lab in order to restore security to the building, and unlock the first floor back door leading to the snowfield.

Commander's room (B1)

In 2005, Snake tried to locate a Nikita missile here as well as Meryl Silverburgh after she was ambushed. In the office itself, Snake fought and defeated Psycho Mantis here in order to save Meryl Silverburgh from his control.

The commander's room, with a possessed Meryl attempting to seduce Snake at gunpoint.

Cave

In 2005, Meryl and Solid Snake traversed through here in order to get to the underground passageway. They also had to be cautious due to wolfdogs inhabiting the caves, although they didn't attack Meryl due to taking a liking to her. Snake later had to retraverse through the caves to go back to the armory and find a suitable sniper rifle after Meryl was shot by Sniper Wolf before retraversing again with the sniper rifle in tow. Snake later traversed through the caves one final time after escaping confinement in the medical room at the tank hangar.

Underground passage

Snake and Meryl find the underground passage leading to the Communications Tower A.

In 2005, the passage was laid with Claymore mines, which were successfully avoided by Snake and Meryl Silverburgh, after the latter was able to recall Psycho Mantis's memories. However, they were ambushed by Sniper Wolf, whom Snake was forced to battle when Meryl was shot. Although he managed to temporarily defeat Sniper Wolf, he also ended up captured. He returned here later after escaping imprisonment, and had a brief flashback to when Meryl was shot when seeing the bloodstain before successfully infiltrating the communication towers.

Communications towers

In 2005, Solid Snake used the walkway between the Communications Towers A and B in order to cross over the glaciers that were blocking the overland route. Snake was initially forced to use the walkway on the roof, as the one located on the 16th floor was inaccessible due to the door being frozen from the outside. However, the upper walkway was destroyed, along with the towers' dish antenna, by Liquid Snake's Hind D. Rapelling down the exterior of Tower A to the lower walkway, Snake successfully crossed to Tower B, and proceeded to destroy Liquid's Hind using Stinger missiles that he procured there. Some of the lower stairs and walkways inside Tower B had previously collapsed, causing Snake to use the elevator, where several stealth-camouflaged soldiers attempted to ambush him.

Snowfield

In 2005, Sniper Wolf battled Snake here for the second time. Nine years later, Wolf's doppelgänger, Crying Wolf,

The crashed Hind D in the Snowfield (Metal Gear Solid 4).

battled Snake in the same area. Various armories occupy the perimeter in addition to the entrance to the underground base and the communication towers, and contain various pine trees. Liquid Snake also placed a parachute on top of a tree so Snake could know that he survived his Hind's crash. A truck was also stationed there, implying that the Snowfield was part of a supply route.

Underground maintenance base

Blast furnace

In 2005, Solid Snake passed through this area in order to get through the underground base, as well as attempt to avoid a mechanical arm knocking him into the molten metal. He later returned here in order to superheat the PAL key to gain the third key in order to deactivate REX.

In 2014, the molten metal had long since been drained. Snake used an elevator to the west to descend to the casting facility.

Casting facility

Snake used the casting facility as an alternate route to the underground base, in 2014, as the door leading to the cargo elevator and warehouse had been sealed by Vamp. Numerous unmanned weapons were deployed to guard the facility.

Warehouse

In 2005, Snake battled Vulcan Raven within the warehouse, using the storage containers as cover from Raven's Vulcan minigun. Snake later revisited the warehouse in order to cause REX's override PAL key to freeze

The Warehouse (Metal Gear Solid).

and change shape, thus allowing him to place another override code to shut down REX, as well as evade several Genome soldiers that arrived at the area.

Underground base

In 2005, Snake attempted to locate the PAL key here after Ocelot shot it out of his hand, as well as attempt to deactivate REX in this area. However, due to a ruse set up by Liquid, Snake ended up unknowingly activating REX instead.

In 2014, Snake utilized the same cargo elevator that brought up REX to get up to the supply tunnel after Otacon remotely via the Mk. III managed to activate it.

Control room

In 2005, Liquid Snake and Ocelot discussed their plans within the control room, as the deadline to their planned nuclear strike loomed. Solid Snake eavesdropped on the two, but was later discovered, subsequently dropping a PAL key into a drainage ditch far below, after being shot at by Ocelot. Snake later retrieved the card and used the control room to input override codes, in order to deactivate Metal Gear REX. However, this plan failed when Snake unwittingly activated REX instead, having been tricked by Liquid.

Supply route

In 2005, Snake battled and disabled Metal Gear REX, then later fought Liquid Snake atop REX's frame. After Liquid's defeat, Snake and Meryl used the supply tunnels to escape from Shadow Moses during an impending bombing raid.

In 2014, Snake held off numerous Suicide Gekko while Raiden fought against Vamp atop REX's remains. Snake later escaped through this area, piloting the newly-reactivated REX, when the Suicide Gekko attempted the destroy the underground base.

Supply port

In 2014, Snake piloted Metal Gear REX in battle against Liquid Ocelot's Metal Gear RAY. Sections of the port area were damaged when Liquid attempted to crush Snake with his personal warship, Outer Haven.

Twin Snakes map.

Hi.

Think you guys can upload that 3D map of the island from The Twin Snakes' pause menu? This might work for this article, certainly for the behind the scenes section. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:02, November 17, 2016 (UTC)