Talk: Liquid Ocelot

Given the little plotline revealed by Big Boss at the end of MGS4... does anyone think we should eventually merge Liquid Ocelot and Revolver Ocelot into one character page? I wrote up basically the entire Liquid Ocelot saga up on Ocelot's page, but this one still stands with a lot more information than I wrote up on the main. Any opinions? Ocelot youth 20:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats a tough question as according to the ocelot article the real "Liquid Ocelot" did exist in MGS2, the parts about MGS2 should be moved to the Liquid Snake article with the addition of info on ocelots amputation, and the part about MGS4 should be incorporated into the ocelot article. Tales-of-a-fan 20:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The Liquid Ocelot information was based on in-game conjecture, as Big Boss made a comment in MGS4 that it was impossible for nanomachines to fully change one person into someone else, I think the whole cybernetic arm thing was to do away with that true "Liquid Ocelot" personality to begin with. I'm not sure what to merge, to be honest! Ocelot youth 20:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a little bit of a confusing matter, that's for sure. I didn't even connect that Ocelot's cyber-arm in the final boss battle could be there for the reason you stated OcelotYouth, but it certainly makes sense. I also got the feeling that in that last boss battle it was almost like Snake was beating Liquid out of Ocelot (the health bars start with Liquid then Liquid Ocelot and finally just Ocelot). We're going to have to discuss this a lot before making any major decisions. --Fantomas 21:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The lifebars changing was more of a stylistic thing IMO, as once you beat "Ocelot," he said something like "It's not over yet!!" it went back to "Liquid Ocelot," in his MGS4 persona. It was kind of like, the many faces of Revolver Ocelot, who was, up until the big reveal, Snake/Big Boss' rival throughout the entire series. It's kinda funny, Kojima said MGS4 would answer all of our previous questions, which it did, but now we have more!! Ocelot youth

No, Fantomas is right - you literally beat Liquid out of him. As his lifebars change, so does his fighting style. After his lifebar changes to ocleot he begins using the technical cqc throws that he displayed at the end of MGS3, as opposed to the brawling style he uses when his lifebar says Liquid. He also uses his hand gesture which he never displayed at all during the rest of the game. Its clear after the battle that he's reverted back to Ocelot completely.

00:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

At any rate we shouldn't be stating a theory as fact. The first page of the Liquid Ocelot article could easily be the "what you're supposed to be thinking" part, that isn't the only article where they do that and then throw new information at the end. Also, Big Boss never said that, he said:

For all our advances in nanotechnology... Information and genetic control... They've never managed to control people at will... Let alone turn one person totally into another.

My interpretation is that he's referring to Les Enfants Terribles and S3, and he's saying that what Ocelot did goes far beyond that. He was able to recapture Liquid's will, his "sense," an aspect of persona that goes far beyond what technology can do. - Kuukai2 15:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

they were able to implant psycho mantis' soul into screaming mantis and she wasn't even the kid of a spirit medium.

Fantomas or ocelot may be right. I agree when ocelot says that there are now some additional questions, especially this one. Considering this, I think we should remove or modify this sentence: "Upon being defeated by Snake, Ocelot explained that he was in fact not Liquid at all, but simply pretending to be him" because we still don't know wether he was really Ocelot or really Liquid (if he has all the caracteristics of liquid and even his consciousness, one may consider him as "liquid").

He was Ocelot, pretending to be Liquid, as Big Boss quite clearly states later in the game. --Fantomas 18:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Big boss never said that : he said that he became liquid's mental doppelgagner, which may mean that he really became someone else. And Big boss said "the corpse that liquid burned on the Volta", and not "the corpse that ocelot burned". Confusing, isn't it ?

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. He became his mental doppelganger, he wasn't being posessed by him. Whether you believe that this may count as him still being Liquid doesn't matter because this sentence is reffering to how fans were dissapointed that he wasn't being posessed. So please, stop removing it. --Fantomas 18:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I could offer my two cents into the equation, It's kinda hard to believe that Ocelot was faking possession from Liquid since the Tanker incident. First of all, during his brief moments of posssession in both the Tanker Incident and the Manhattan Incident, he sounded exactly like Liquid, and secondly, and most importantly, if he was faking possession from Liquid since the Tanker Incident, why did he remove the arm and replace it with a cybernetic in the first place? He could have easily kept the arm to make his acting much more believable. Weedle McHairybug 18:24, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia section

I thought the whole thing about the irony of in MGS2, Liquid Ocelot sounded exactly like Liquid Snake was supposed to be notable, so why remove it, CrashSnake? Weedle McHairybug 10:30, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

It was probably removed because it is known that the change of voice actors was a design choice, as by this time Hideo Kojima probably wanted to retcon the whole "spirit possession" thing, since he was forced to continue the story beyond MGS2, due to fan demand. They could have chosen to continue using Liquid's voice actor, since Cam Clark's still around, but decided not to, seeing as it would be more confusing for the player , considering the revelations in MGS4.

On a related note, it makes more sense that Ocelot sound the same throughout his entire "possession", and retconning away Liquid's voice in MGS2. After all, Liquid Snake has a very distinctive voice, and Solid Snake did not immediately recognise this when he first hears Ocelot as Liquid, it seems to be more his change in mannerisms than the sound of his voice that clues Snake in to who he is. Also, it could be argued that Ocelot's vocal chords wouldn't become altered into the exact structure necessary for Liquid's voice to be produced, but stranger things have happened in the MGS series.

Anyway, thats my two cents. --Bluerock 12:13, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Ok. Although he could have at least kept the arm instead of trying to replace it with a biomechanical cybernetic. Weedle McHairybug 12:17, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll admit that was a strange move. Maybe he just thought "Why have a regular human arm when I can have a super-strong cybernetic one?"

My best guess would be that initially having Liquid's arm would create the whole illusion of Liquid's spiritual possession to the Patriots (because, hey, even super-advanced AIs are superstitious, lol). Also, note that after he gets the cybernetic arm, he always keeps it hidden from view, maintaining the illusion that he's still in possession due to Liquid's arm. So, yeah, a very convuluted, yet ultimately successful plan.

Also, its an early indicator to players that Liquids spirit is in fact not in control of him, as previously believed.

Bluerock 12:47, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well, at least not in MGS4. BTW, speaking of Liquid, his page as well as his brothers really need to be unprotected. Weedle McHairybug 12:48, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

French

Should we really state that Liquid Ocelot's nationality is French? I mean, I know he was born in Normandy, France during World War II, but I'm not really sure if that should be noted, seeing how he really didn't spend a lot of time in France during his birth (he was snatched away immediately after he was born), and besides which, we might as well list Germany as his heritage, seeing how at the time, France was little more than a region for Nazi Germany. Weedle McHairybug 15:16, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

He was born there, but he wasn't raised there, nor were his parents French, so no, this isn't his nationality. He would therefore never have applied for French citizenship, so officially he sin't French either. --Bluerock 15:41, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, hes referring to the "land's right", if you're born on french land, then you're instantly french, then he lived in Russia, and became russian too, multiple-nationality is accepted by many countries. -Zozaly 23:56, July 26, 2010

Doppleganger

When he says 'i was liquid's doppleganger and you were his' who is he referring to? I know it's probably Big Boss but i always kinda thought it could be referring to Zero as everything Snake did seemed to be manipulated by the Patriots--Soul reaper 09:30, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss, yes. He is a clone of the man after all. --Fantomas 10:40, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Can you please stop this madness?!

Crashsnake is constantly deleting Liquid Ocelot's appearance in Metal Gear Solid 2's section, and I need this to end. Weedle McHairybug 18:57, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Ocelot's Plan

This is one take on Ocelot's Plan. After Shadow Moses Ocelot is without a hand and is planning his insurection along with Eva, but then he sees an oppotunity with Liquid being dead to have either a cover for his plan or a scapegoat (just a suggestion) to draw attention away from big boss so he can slip away to kill zero and end the patriots by faking possession. He takes liquids arm in order to make it seem more believeable when he later fakes possession and plans on serving solidus and the patriots until he has ray and arsenal gear (outer heaven prototype?) to help him in his insurrection. However what he doesn't expect is that liquid genuinly possesses him and crashes arsenal gear into mannhaten and escapes. Ocelot later becomes in control again and replaces liquid's arm with a cybernetic to stop liquid from taking over his body. He then hypnotises himself, makes a new and improved version of arsenal gear and you know the rest. I think this makes the most sense

However about 'Liquid's' comments during MGS2 like 'I chose Ocelot as my host' 'I live on through this arm' ect I think that actually supports Ocelot's faking of possession because if in MGS2 Snake and them heard Ocelot's voice instead of Liquid's then those comments make more sense if ocelot had faked possession because it would draw attention away from the possibility of him faking it