Nationality[]
So, how do we know she's Swedish and not, say, Danish or Norwegian?
- We don't, it was just an "educated guess" because I needed to have a flag on there for her nationality.
I changed the "Swedish" nationality to just "Scandinavian". ArArAr 11:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's fair enough, given the circumstances. --Fantomas 11:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Finland is not part of Scandinavia. Only Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland are. --Lessthan3 22:59, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Give me a break... "finland is not part of Scandinavia"...
- Anyway, we can have a fight about that later. More to the point. Location of The Devil's Village is actually turf war between Finland and Norway. It doesn't really exist but it's a myth (from 12th century if I remember right). We (Finland) say it's in north of Norway, near Nordkapp, and Norway say it's north Lappland. Dr.Ed Argon 20:44, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
- There arent eny octopusses in scandinavia. User:Korppufin A Finnish guy who knows a lot about scandinavia and just happend to stubol upon this page 21:39 September 15, 2013 (UTC) ?
Fate[]
We can argue whether she survived or not here. I think that the B&Bs did. I left an explanation here (http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Richard1990#The_B.26B_Members). --Thx-11381 23:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing how the way their defeats are always with the fetal position (Which, unless I'm mistaken, can only be achieved if they were defeated by non-lethal means), as well as Laughing Octopus's Snoring (Corpses do NOT snore, people.), we can't say their dead. Heck, Richard1990 gave a very valid arguement as to their possible survival. When Drebin said that they don't last long after being unleashed from their bio-mechanical suits, they probably meant their minds, as they were seen recollecting their painful memories when separated (Heck, even their suits were seen changing when calming down, as while they are recollecting memories after being separated from their mech suits, the body suits are seen pulsating in a way similar to liquid (or in Raging Raven's case, Magma), and then when they act in a... relatively more sane manner when telling Snake to put an end to their misery, the body suits look more natural.). Another thing about it is that, if they were dead, Unless I'm mistaken, which I probably am, but the way they died is similar to how the FROGs die when they are defeated or how Python is killed (In other words, they combust and become charred remains.). If we were to label them as "Deceased", Then we might as well remove the fact that, after being quelled they go into a Fetal-positon in their Bios with their combusting in a manner similar to FROGs and becoming nothing more than Charred Corpses.
- I agree... to a point. When Snake checks the pulse of Octopus at the end of the boss fight, if you have controller vibration, you will feel her pulse become weak and then stop altogether (if you take her out non-lethally). I have no idea if destroying her suit non-lethally affects her apparent "death" at the end of the Beauty fight, however. -Shockwolf10 11:21, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
- I have to say I believe the canon if explained properly will be that they are supposed to be defeated with non-lethal means. If for no other reason than to keep continuity between them, since obviously Screaming Mantis cannot be killed. I also note the nano-combustion as another sign of them being supposed to survive, and the fact that it is rewarded. MGS4 is after all a sneaking game, your goal is to have minimal interaction with enemies, and do minimal damage. Logic tells us that the thing that gets you rewarded usually is the right thing to do, and the right thing is usually canon. I can't attest to the pulse with the vibration etc, but is it possible that the vibrations expiring is merely a sign of that Snake stops taking her pulse? I'm changing the article to read Neutralized instead of Deceased, that way you can interpret it as you please. --Lessthan3 23:09, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree... to a point. When Snake checks the pulse of Octopus at the end of the boss fight, if you have controller vibration, you will feel her pulse become weak and then stop altogether (if you take her out non-lethally). I have no idea if destroying her suit non-lethally affects her apparent "death" at the end of the Beauty fight, however. -Shockwolf10 11:21, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
- Even if they are defeated via non-lethal methods, they are still dead. Drebin says they can only survive for a few minutes outside of their suits. --Fantomas 23:35, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Though he did say it was a rumour so it could still mean that either one could have occured. --Bluerock 00:36, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
- If it is indeed true that the Beauty and the Beast unit not surviving without their suits is a rumor, I propose we change their status as "unknown" since it really hasn't been proven that they do actually die outside of their suits after several minutes. Weedle McHairybug 11:37, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the MGS4 Database lists them as "Neutralized" which can mean either dead or alive. And the comment made by Drebin regarding their ability to survive outside their suits I interpreted as surviving mentally. Since the moment they shed their suits they break down, start hallucinating etc. and then proceed to chase and embrace Snake, which is not normal behaviour towards someone you were trying to kill a few moments ago. --Lessthan3 21:49, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
- They do die. If the player doesn't shoot them after several minutes, they automatically collapse and die. Their clothes then burn to a crisp. And Snake is always seen with a pistol, not a tranquilizer gun. Even Drebin's and Snake's dialogue in the codec conversations suggest that they die. For exampe, after the Raging Raven battle, Snake asks Drebin how old "was" she instead of how old "is" she. And during an optional codec conversation after the Crying Wolf battle, Snake tells Otacon that the wolfs are now guarding her "grave". --70.126.139.90 18:42, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Look, Drebin's exact words on that matter were "Word going around is... Their natural, flesh-and-blood bodies can't survive in the open for more than a few minutes." Word going around implies a rumor. For example, If I said "word going around is that Walmart is closing down due to lack of finance" I'm stating a rumor. If it were fact, I'd say "I learned from the Wall Street Journal and it's finances section that WalMart is closing down due to going bankrupt." My point is that if what Drebin said was indeed supposed to be fact, the script would have said "Medical studies that were done onto them and frequent psychological exams have proven that their natural, flesh-and-blood bodies can't survive for more than a few minutes." I might consider the grammar, but that's the only thing that might suggest death. The wolf thing was probably in reference to Sniper Wolf's grave, seeing how Crying Wolf's comatose body was dragged away by a wolf from the area. Weedle McHairybug 18:51, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- You really are an idiot. What Drebin said does not matter. The player SEES them die. Their bodies are set ablaze. They collapse and die. Their clothes are burned to a crisp. And blood is seen on the floor. And Snake was not talking about Sniper Wolf. There's no proof her body is even buried in Shadow Moses. The wolf was carrying Crying Wolf's corpse. --70.126.139.90 18:55, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- No, the player only sees them die two out of three times (If you tranquilize them, they fall with white feathers). As for proof, I'm pretty sure that her body being in a snowstorm would make at least an unofficial burial (similar to the Tank operators that Snake killed, which were stated to have been buried in the snow, BTW.), and besides which, as you stated before, the wolf carted off Crying Wolf's body. If they wanted to make it clear that she died, the wolf would have dug a hole, lifted Crying Wolf up, lowered her into the snow, and then refilled the snow hole. Why bother guarding her grave if it isn't even near the place? As far as I'm concerned, it needs to be 100% verified. Also, when I said the Database, they usually have these colored fonts for their fates (red, blue and purple. I have heard that their font was purple. Red is killed in battle, Blue I think is killed regularly, and Purple I think is Neutralized [which doesn't really confirm whether they were killed or not.]. And I'm NOT an Idiot, do you think I would have graduated from Kindergarten, nevermind High School, and got As and Bs in my classes if I truly was an idiot? I'd be getting F's if I were one. Personally, I don't even care about their fates. As far as I'm concerned, they are dead. Or they are alive. Whatever the case, unless we have absolute, uncontradicted proof, we shouldn't say deceased as being their confirmed fate any more than we should say that their fate is survival. Weedle McHairybug 19:06, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, you are an idiot. The statement means Wolf died. Graves are for dead people. And of course, the wolves don't dig graves. But they put her body somewhere. And once again, if the player doesn't shoot them after several minutes, they collapse and die. Knocking them out only means they die off-screen. Honestly, you are dense. Anyway, I've sent Fantomas a message. Hopefully, he can wake you up. --70.126.139.90 19:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- No, I am not. The definition of an idiot is someone who is incapable of having intelligence (meaning, I would have flunked all of my classes and been removed before my first day.). Heck, I wouldn't have even received the president's letter (which is to be given to people with significantly high grades). Also, graves require for the person to be buried in. Also, Fantomas also agreed with me and Bluerock when he remembered the whole "word going around" line. Besides, why couldn't they have done something similar with the Cobra Unit (They could have had Snake shoot them with a tranquilizer, and then just have them fall asleep. Instead, despite the fact that they were only non-lethally taken care of, they still explode.). And also, if Crying Wolf did indeed die, I'm pretty sure that the Wolf would either A: be burned alive with her [that's assuming that she dies offscreen], or B: end up transforming her charred body into dust before it even attempts to pick her up (If Snake can touch the FROG bodies if killed and disintegrate them to dust, then assuming Crying Wolf's death is extremely similar, then those scenarios would also have happened.). We need absolute confirmation, as those are not enough. Weedle McHairybug 19:24, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- That's because the canon choice is to kill the Cobra Unit members. And of course graves require people to be buried in. But that's irrelevant. Wolf still died. Snake made that clear. And the Beauty and the Beast members do not have the nanomachines that the FROGS have. Their heads are not burned to a crisp. Oh, and congratulations on getting a letter from Obama.
- It's Obama and Bush, BTW. If Snake makes it clear that at least Crying Wolf died, then I'll leave it in. However, I do know that the canon choice to the Cobra Unit's fate is canon. My point in referencing the Cobra Unit was that they would have given the same death animation each and every way they are defeated in order to be confirmed as dead. That's my point. Weedle McHairybug 19:36, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- No, the player only sees them die two out of three times (If you tranquilize them, they fall with white feathers). As for proof, I'm pretty sure that her body being in a snowstorm would make at least an unofficial burial (similar to the Tank operators that Snake killed, which were stated to have been buried in the snow, BTW.), and besides which, as you stated before, the wolf carted off Crying Wolf's body. If they wanted to make it clear that she died, the wolf would have dug a hole, lifted Crying Wolf up, lowered her into the snow, and then refilled the snow hole. Why bother guarding her grave if it isn't even near the place? As far as I'm concerned, it needs to be 100% verified. Also, when I said the Database, they usually have these colored fonts for their fates (red, blue and purple. I have heard that their font was purple. Red is killed in battle, Blue I think is killed regularly, and Purple I think is Neutralized [which doesn't really confirm whether they were killed or not.]. And I'm NOT an Idiot, do you think I would have graduated from Kindergarten, nevermind High School, and got As and Bs in my classes if I truly was an idiot? I'd be getting F's if I were one. Personally, I don't even care about their fates. As far as I'm concerned, they are dead. Or they are alive. Whatever the case, unless we have absolute, uncontradicted proof, we shouldn't say deceased as being their confirmed fate any more than we should say that their fate is survival. Weedle McHairybug 19:06, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- You really are an idiot. What Drebin said does not matter. The player SEES them die. Their bodies are set ablaze. They collapse and die. Their clothes are burned to a crisp. And blood is seen on the floor. And Snake was not talking about Sniper Wolf. There's no proof her body is even buried in Shadow Moses. The wolf was carrying Crying Wolf's corpse. --70.126.139.90 18:55, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Look, Drebin's exact words on that matter were "Word going around is... Their natural, flesh-and-blood bodies can't survive in the open for more than a few minutes." Word going around implies a rumor. For example, If I said "word going around is that Walmart is closing down due to lack of finance" I'm stating a rumor. If it were fact, I'd say "I learned from the Wall Street Journal and it's finances section that WalMart is closing down due to going bankrupt." My point is that if what Drebin said was indeed supposed to be fact, the script would have said "Medical studies that were done onto them and frequent psychological exams have proven that their natural, flesh-and-blood bodies can't survive for more than a few minutes." I might consider the grammar, but that's the only thing that might suggest death. The wolf thing was probably in reference to Sniper Wolf's grave, seeing how Crying Wolf's comatose body was dragged away by a wolf from the area. Weedle McHairybug 18:51, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- They do die. If the player doesn't shoot them after several minutes, they automatically collapse and die. Their clothes then burn to a crisp. And Snake is always seen with a pistol, not a tranquilizer gun. Even Drebin's and Snake's dialogue in the codec conversations suggest that they die. For exampe, after the Raging Raven battle, Snake asks Drebin how old "was" she instead of how old "is" she. And during an optional codec conversation after the Crying Wolf battle, Snake tells Otacon that the wolfs are now guarding her "grave". --70.126.139.90 18:42, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the MGS4 Database lists them as "Neutralized" which can mean either dead or alive. And the comment made by Drebin regarding their ability to survive outside their suits I interpreted as surviving mentally. Since the moment they shed their suits they break down, start hallucinating etc. and then proceed to chase and embrace Snake, which is not normal behaviour towards someone you were trying to kill a few moments ago. --Lessthan3 21:49, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
- If it is indeed true that the Beauty and the Beast unit not surviving without their suits is a rumor, I propose we change their status as "unknown" since it really hasn't been proven that they do actually die outside of their suits after several minutes. Weedle McHairybug 11:37, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Though he did say it was a rumour so it could still mean that either one could have occured. --Bluerock 00:36, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, I think it's safe to say they are dead. Drebin mentions the rumor that states they can only survive temporarily outisde their suits, but this is backed up by in-game evidence. If you leave them alone in the Beauty portions of the battles you will eventually be taken to the White Room. Leaving them alone here, they eventually fall dead, suggesting they couldn't survive on their own. But I am surprised you even care about my opinion I.P... --Fantomas 20:15, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I guess there's really nothing much I can say. Although they could still have them dying the exact same way regardless of how you defeat them, similar to the Cobra Unit. Whatever, I guess I'll leave it as is. I personally think they'd need to make it a lot more clearer, anyways. Weedle McHairybug 20:26, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you Fantomas.
- But Fantomas, is the White Room even canon? Just seemed like a place to photograph posing Beautys to me, added as an easter egg. Anyway, I believe that the B&B members survived if taken out non-lethally. Doing nothing would mean that they die, I agree with that, but making them fall unconscious when outside their suits probably helped in some way to heal them emotionally/physically. Either way, they are alive immediately after being tranqed. It's the player's choice, so it will never be confirmed in canon. Just like Ocelot's and Big Boss's duel in MGS3, there are four possible outcomes. It should just be left ambiguous.--Bluerock 20:41, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Well, probably won't matter anyways, seeing how even IF I try to consider adding it back in, it will be deleted anyways... Yeah, I know the Ocelot and Big Boss duel was unknown. Although, the Novelization mentioned that Big Boss and Ocelot had a duel in the sixties and that Big Boss won fair and square, whether he was talking about the WiG duel or the duel at Bolshaya Past Crevace was never specified. Weedle McHairybug 20:50, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Don't think of the white room, just think of the concept of leaving them alone, they do die anyway regardless. It's a tricky debate, and I think it's just one of those things we'll never really have a definite answer for. Just like Liquid's possession of Ocelot. We just have to come to a conclusion ourselves that everyone can be happy with. --Fantomas 20:52, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Actually, the indefinite conclusion was the primary reason why I felt it should be labelled as unknown. If it isn't definitely confirmed, why even bother claiming they died? I know Wikipedia isn't exactly like this wikia, but it does have similar enough rules and operative motem. Anyways, on Wikipedia, they usually state that we shouldn't say something in regards to an article unless it is definitely what happened. Weedle McHairybug 20:57, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Well, probably won't matter anyways, seeing how even IF I try to consider adding it back in, it will be deleted anyways... Yeah, I know the Ocelot and Big Boss duel was unknown. Although, the Novelization mentioned that Big Boss and Ocelot had a duel in the sixties and that Big Boss won fair and square, whether he was talking about the WiG duel or the duel at Bolshaya Past Crevace was never specified. Weedle McHairybug 20:50, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Still not really convinced Fantomas, Snake physically knocking them out, before they die from being outside their suits, must have some effect on their survival. I just can't see why they would even have this in the game if there's no real choice. Change it back to unknown, then just leave it as is. --Bluerock 21:22, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
- You are hopeless. Anyway, I like the "neutralized" option that the guy put. It neither says they lived, died or that their fate is unknown.
I thought the white room was meant to show you a time limit on how much time you have. As in 'make the most of your time!' Benfen 13:42, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
FaceCamo and Laughing Octopus Doll[]
Under the section Boss strategy, says "Defeat [Laughing Beauty] non-lethally to obtain her disguise for the FaceCamo." I think this is mistaken. I just defeated her lethally and I obtained the FaceCamo. I believe that the correct is that defeating Laughing Octopus using all non-lethal attacks you obtain the Laughing Octopus Doll. When fighting Laughing Beauty, no matter how you kill her (lethally or non-lethally) you obtain FaceCamo. Am I correct? 68.32.35.76 22:58, November 17, 2012 (UTC) Br2000
- I think the Boss strategy section was meaning that you can actually use Laughing Beauty's face as a FaceCamo if you defeat her, not the FaceCamo itself. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 01:56, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, FaceCamo itself is unlocked regardless, but the Laughing Beauty disguise is only unlocked by defeating her Beauty form non-lethally. The Doll is unlocked by defeating her Beast form non-lethally. I altered the text in the gameplay section to make this more clear. --Bluerock (talk) 09:50, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
Some things in the article seem very speculative[]
I'm talking about her biography.
The article mentions that she might have been raped. To my understanding there are moans in every Beauty Form sequence. And Drebin's explanation of her history doesn't mention rape either. So that's highly speculative.
It also mentions that she was hallucinating that the blood turned black. But blood becomes very dark once it dries up. And since she was forced to torture and mutilate her family for probably quite a while that seems a hell of a lot more likely than her hallucinating that bright red blood becomes octopus ink.
I think that these sections should be rewritten to include less speculation and meet the standards of a proper wikia article.146.52.249.19 19:00, April 14, 2013 (UTC)