Considering that John Doe in English language means an unknown person, or a man with no name, I would believe in Naked Snake's name to be Jack. Snake was never allowed to reveal his real name, and therefore used name "John" or "John Doe" in every possible situation(even when talking to Paramedic!!) --Snipufin 23:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Another thought could be, that EVA (also of Chinese origin), may have been the surrogate mother for the the Les Infant Terribles. This is also exemplified during solid snake's briefing for the dismantling of REX. He was brought in with golden long hair a trait possibly passed down from EVA. To distinguish himself from Liquid he dyes his hair brown. Along with EVA calling herself Big Mama, there seems to be a strong association that Snake has eastern decent in him. – mint

I'll have to find the source (I think it's in game) but big boss is part Japanese. Eva is American, the philosophers took a lot of kids from around the world so they could be used as sleeper agents within their own countries. As for the hair colour thing check this out [1] --Drawde83 06:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've already removed that part. --Fantomas 06:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I read what u said, and from what i gathered, at the mission briefing he does cut and dye his hair, i could be wrong, but i believe this to be true. As for EVA, she is both american and chinese decent. Her, appearance was considered when forging her into a sleeper agent since she is indistinguishable.

as for the article, the arguments seem to be unfounded. Just cuz it was so in the past doesn't make it true. Ravi, or whoever argues about genetics. the trait of brown over blonde or watever in terms of dominance doesn't exist. there is no such thing as one colour being dominantly fixed over the other, its a relative term between two different alleles. secondly, hideo states that it was a way to distinguish the two characters. He was right, if solid snake states these words in the briefing. I'm sure you can confirm or deny via youtube. I can go over this in more detail if u wish, just holla.

So even though my theory of EVA may be incomplete or compltely wrong, I do believe that snake is a natural blonde. I hope u can look into this.

Snake isn't naturally blonde any more. He was, but Kojima changed it for whatever reason. You're right about Snake cutting and dying his hair at the end of the mission briefing, but like that article says in The Twin Snakes it was changed as per Hideo's request. Also, even if EVA was Snake's surrogate mother, her genes would not be passed onto Snake as he is a clone of Big Boss, created from his cells. The whole point of Les Enfants Terribles was to create a clone of Big Boss, not bogged down by some one else's genes. --Fantomas 08:04, 3 June 2008
Well, you're sort of correct. the dyeing of his hair was changed in The Twin Snakes, but the part about his cutting it was kept as is (I saw the briefing videos that were with the Twin Snakes' graphics, so I know what I'm talking about.) Weedle McHairybug 17:52, January 1, 2010 (UTC)


Some people here are clearly not understanding the way that cloning works. Snake is a clone of Big Boss, and Big Boss alone (although he was tampered with slightly when they tried to separate the superior genes into Liquid and the inferrior genes into Solid (which Liquid misunderstands as a difference between dominant and recessive). So with that asside, Solid is 100% made from Big Boss. Eva had absolutely no effect on how Solid turned out, she simply provided the womb in which the tampered-with-solid-snake-fetus would develop. When scientists clone, you dont just toss someone in a machine and then POOF, an exact replica comes out. Clones are grown and born in exactly the same way as normal animals, the only difference being that the clone only has genes from one source instead of two parents. The part about snake being part japanese is partially true because Big Boss has some japanese lineage (1/2 or 1/4 or something). Raven's "prophecy" that snake has blood from Asia refers to the egg that was provided to create him (which was taken from an Asian donor... maybe japanese, I don't remember, but it's in a cutscene in MGS4). The egg did not provide any genes, it simply served as a vessel for Snake to be grown in the womb. TheDigitalMonk 05:48, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


"Also, his Naked Snake camouflage suit appears as one of the color swaps for Solid Snake (given that Snake's look in this game seems to draw directly from Naked Snake's design)."

not true! his SSMB design is almost exactly from Metal Gear Solid 2, even the grenade launcher in his final smash.

Actually, if you look carefully at his face, he looks more like Naked Snake then Solid Snake. That's what that is referring too. --Fantomas 17:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

that's just because of the upgrade in graphical detail which as it's know the Wii is more powerful then the PS2 and able to render MGS3 snake

Unit 412  - This is Unit 412 to HQ...I have eliminated the Intruder.
TALK - The moving box was pretty suspicious, so I fired a "few" shots into it.
Hey, since Snake has all of Big Boss's dominant genes (or so I've been told; I've only played/beaten MGS2 and 3), then shouldn't they look a lot alike anyway? Oh, and the Snake in brawl has a few differences than the MGS2 Snake to me. In SSBB his facial hair is darker and he has more of it (like Naked Snake) then MGS2 Snake. Just my opinion though. The thing is, they both look almost the same when you compare how they looked at a certain age. Naked Snake just looks a little bigger (as opposed to Solid Snake, who's a bit skinnier than Naked Snake (or that is how it appears to me)). And yeah, one of the camos in Brawl is identical to the Fire Camo, which is in MGS3. Or it could just be one of those alternate character things we see in Brawl (Link-Dark Link, Samus-Dark Suit Samus, Captain Falcon-Blood Falcon, Toon Link-Original Color Link, etc.)

Snake has all recessive genes, not dominant. But that's not important because he's a clone so he should look like him. You're pretty much right with the rest of that though (though I'm not sure if I agree that Snake is skinnier, but whatever!) --Fantomas 11:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No, Snake has all the dominant genes, Liquid has the recessive(which is why he has blond hair). It just turns out that the recessive genes were 'superior' and the dominant genes 'inferior'. Also Snake never dyed his hair in MGS1, he just cut it. he clearly states this in the MGS1 breifing.

The above is wrong: see Talk:Les_Enfants_Terribles. Evil Tim 08:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Snake has Big Boss' dominante genes and Liquid has the recessive genes. But Snakes dominante genes are inferior. Marcaurelix

Actually, it is never clearly established which Snake has the dominant or recessive genes. Although, Ocelot reveals that Solid was actually the inferior one, he never explains what this means in regards to gene expression. Liquid clearly felt that recessive was equivalent to inferior, though this of coure isn't accurate. So its anyone's guess really, but either way, the point is that who had what genes didn't matter in the end. --Bluerock 18:44, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

No, Solid wasn't the inferior one. Yes, he stated it to Snake, but Big Boss had lied to Liquid to make him fight harder to prove he WASN'T. Benfen 15:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

"No, Solid wasn't the inferior one."
Uh, you mean Liquid, right? --Bluerock 17:51, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss and his Sons.

Why does the young Snake looks like young Big Boss but Old Snake doesn't look like Big Boss? But Solidus really looks like the old Big Boss, and again Old Snake doesn't look like Solidus. And Snake and Liquid doesn't look alike and I'm not talking about their hair color or skin color, I'm talking about facial features and why does Solidus looks older than Liquid and Snake?. Here's a diagram:

  • Solid Snake ≠ Liquid Snake
  • Solid Snake = Naked Snake
  • Solid Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
  • Liquid Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
  • Old Snake ≠ Big Boss
  • Old Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
  • Solidus Snake = Big Boss
  • (=) is "Looks like"
  • (≠) is "Doesn't look like"
  • (Naked Snake) is "Big Boss(young)"

Cgs93 19:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)Cgs93

Doesn't it have something to do with the fact that Solidus is the most direct clone? He was infused with both dominant and recessive genes, while Solid and Liquid were both created from dominant and recessive separately. That would mean that he would look nearly identical to Big Boss while Solid and Liquid would look only slightly like Big Boss. I'm just guessing.
 : I'm sorry to join and add an information here but I can't stay Silent (I'm not logged and I don't have any account yet)

-Yes Liquid dosen't look like Solid BUT let me remind you that officialy, they have thesame face, as Campbell said in MGS1, plus the fact Meryl 1st thought Snake was liquid, it means they should have the same face.

-Old Snake dosen't look like solidus, but Solidus isn't old, he just die his hair and beard white to look like big boss.

-Liquid Ocelot looks like an older liquid snake

-About Solid Snake's hair in the briefing mission, I personaly think it's just a negative effect colour ! Remember on the first Metal Gear games, Snake's got dark hair + in the brieffing, his skin is sort of dark/red, but is perfectly white in game.

i know this is an old post but someones gotta say it solidus did NOT dye his hair, he was made to age even faster than his brothers also if you look at Mount Snakemore in MGS4 solidus does look quite similar to old snake and finally Liquid Ocelot doesn't look like an older liquid because its not his body User:Soul reaper

MGS4 big boss wasn't the real big boss

....where's the scaring from him being burned to "death" in metal gear 2? where's the snatcher organs? I think either the real one was actually on the volta because really think about it no scarring and not one trace of the snatcher organs he's perfectly fine even for an 80 year old thought he looks like he's still 60

Were you not paying attention? Big Boss says he was rebuilt using parts from Liquid and Solidus' bodies. That's why even though it's Solidus body during Act III, he looks all messed up and half his body is missing, because he was used to rebuild Big Boss. --Fantomas 16:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Easily A LIE fantomas you got to remember how many times we were lied to in MGS2 let alone MGS4 for the last nearly 7 years before MGS4 we thought liquid was still alive in ocelot's right arm. Big Boss, the man who we saw kill Zero, had no visible scarring on his body from burns or no visible sign of snatcher organs and don't tell me MG2:Solid Snake was not canon because it's been said many times about Outer heaven and Zanzibar Land being apart of the canon timeline. anyway it's kind of creepy how instead of the old man from the end of MGS4 we saw we get that corpse as the face camo of big boss. 01:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I believe the whole Snatcher Organs thing isn't canon anymore as all references to it were removed from the re-release of Metal Gear 2. I don't know why it's mentioned in the Database, but the database is pretty hit and miss on some of these issues. But simply jumping to the conclusion that it was a lie, is frankly, incredibly stupid. What would be the point of that? --Fantomas 01:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The "corpse" is missing the wrong eye, too. Do you really think that someone moved Big Boss's remaining eye and removed his snatcher organs assuming they're canon (you "can't see them" on the "corpse" either) as part of an elaborate attempt to make Snake believe that Big Boss was still alive, just so they could kill him off before his very eyes? What possible purpose could this serve? It's way more elaborate than the given explanation (which, by the way, fully explains everything you're questioning), and makes absolutely no sense. Occam's razor, dude. - Kuukai2 04:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

it wasn't his corpse try playing the game before mothing off andf making your self look stupid it was solidus's corps as in his son from mgs2. User:Captain-One

Actually, I'm not sure if the Snatcher reference was even canon to begin with. They never said he actually got them, just that he was rumored to have them (which, other than an in-joke to Snatchers, was just that. A rumor.)

Anything said in the game is usually Canon unless reversed/revised in game or by the creators however the PS2 versions(which I guess would be rewritten to fit the MGS time line), but it might not be you never know anyway some one said the used parts from liquid and Solidus to repair the real big boss. I remember them saying they used parts from those two to make the dummy body but not to fix the real thing. Which makes me question if that was the real big boss, especially with the end of Peace Walkers trailer with the 4 snakes(all looked like big boss during the 70's and Kojima the team aren't talking)- 04:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

-=Time to clear up somethings=- "we were lied to in MGS2 let alone MGS4 for the last nearly 7 years before MGS4 we thought liquid was still alive in ocelot's right arm." False. Liquid WAS taking over ocelot during the events of MGS2. Sometime between MGS2 and MGS4, Ocelot got the arm replaced with a mechanical one (as displayed in the final fight of MGS4, notice how different the arm looks). So during MGS4, it's ocelot preteding to be liquid. During MGS2, it's a legitimate struggle. "...especially with the end of Peace Walkers trailer with the 4 snakes(all looked like big boss during the 70's and Kojima the team aren't talking)" I'll confidently bet you $100 that the 4 snakes we saw have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline and were just there in the trailer to demonstrate how co-op is a part of the game. --TheDigitalMonk


Why don'y u guys put that Big Boss's mother was a japanese woman? EVA told that to Snake when they first met.

What? --Fantomas 00:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry man it was a mistake EVA was referring to a another person.

Yeah, she was talking about Solid Snake, not Naked Snake/Big Boss. Hence my confusion. --Fantomas 21:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

She's Chinese... Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 04:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No EVA's chinese, but is only the surrogate mother - she just carried the egg. She has no blood relation whatsoever to liquid or solid snake, despit ehow she made it seem in Act 3. Their true 'mother' was the japansese assistant of Dr Clark, as mentioned by EVA in act 3.

Also, about Big Boss, it was actually stated in his bio for the MGS1 strategy guide that his parents were in fact japanese and he suffered prejudice after the second world war because of this.. I doubt the canonicity of this now though due to the fact that Big Boss's age was changed substantially in MGS3.

Wasn't Dr. Clark Paramedic? Benfen 07:06, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Clark IS Paramedic. Your point? -Misterbunnsy 00:50, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

John NOT Jack

Who the f--- keeps changing his name to Jack? 22:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

His name is Jack, he's only joking when he says his name is John to Para-Medic.. Remember when they said they couldn't reveal their real names over radio? Why they hell would he tell her his real name ? She also didn't say her real name. Jane/John Doe's are unidentified female/male bodies. Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 04:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I honestly find it hard to believe how ignorant people are on this topic even though they debate it so vigorously. So let me just set the record using words everyone will understand: JOHN AND JACK ARE THE SAME NAME, JACK IS JUST A NICKNAME FOR THE NAME JOHN! Yeah, you know how another name for Richard is :"Dick"? Or another name for William is "Bill"? Yeah, same concept. Hell even John F. Kennedy was called "Jack" by his friends. So with that in mind, Big Boss's proper real name is "John" while Jack is his nickname. - 06:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this, notice how the only person who actually knows him properly in MGS3 is the boss, and she is the only one who calls him jack? she would be the only one to use a nickname as she is the only one close to him - Dirty Duck
I have been away for too long. His name is John Doe. It was confirmed in "R" (a limited edition booklet released detailing the making of MGS3). MGS4 backs this up with the head AI being named JD. The IP is absolutely right! --Fantomas 10:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
His name isn't John doe thats a nickname for a nameless soldier Zombo-tech (talk) 10:31, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I knew that Jack was a nickname for John (its also a name by itself though), but dear God. That's the stupidest thing ever. Why does his name have to be John Doe? Goddammit...

  • I think its awesome that his real name's actually John Doe. It further adds to the mystique surrounding the character. Everything about Big Boss is pure badass now; the haircut, the goatee, the eyepatch, the trenchcoat and uniform, and now the name. He really is an enigma - extroadinary combat skills that led to people calling him the 'greatest soldier that ever lived' and a mysterious name that is usually used for unidentified bodies.

..But, why would he tell Para-Medic if it where his real name..? She didn't tell him hers... This is so confusing.

..Its still stupid.Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 21:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I had found some site that presumably had the "actual" names of Zero, Sigint, and Para-Medic. I am NPT sure if the site's info was genuine, and I am sorry to say that I forgot what the site's address was...but I just wanted to share that the information is out there (at least it SHOULD be there...)User:The Sorrow Puppet 9:27, 6 February 2009

  • Well we pretty much know their real names anyway; Zero is David Oh, SIGINT is Donald Anderson and Para-Medic's surname is Clark(we don't know her first name).

Hey guys, ever look closely at the names of the targets in virtual range? Their names are all: John Doe. PSYCHOFYRE

I'm all for Jack, over John 1. The Boss calls him it.. and the Boss knew him best 2. Jack in it's own right is a name 3. he obviously Smirked when he gave Ocelot the name like 'heh, it's John' thats my statement not an argument, something to think about s'all Zachariah Zuan 19:03, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, the Boss does know him best, but she would just as likely refer to him by his most commonly used name. To be honest, I didn't really see any reason why Snake would need to lie about his first name to Ocelot. After all, there must be thousands (tens of thousands?) of Americans named John, let alone the number of those that work in the CIA. --Bluerock 07:58, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
would you give your identity on a top secret mission? to the enemy? (due to the fact he didn't know Ocelot was on his side) Zachariah Zuan 12:49, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 :::::Considering the fact that he didn't even give his full name (which WOULD be a big problem since it would narrow things down a bit), he never really gave his full identity to the enemy even if Ocelot wasn't on his side. Besides, Ocelot messed up in that area as well, since he told Snake his first name as well (Adamska). Weedle McHairybug 14:24, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
Seriously though, John is such a common name, even Ocelot remarks that its a plain name. The two exchanged their real names as a sort of mutual respect for one another; Snake went a step further by giving his birth name rather than one which everybody else knew him by. Zadornov sort of confirmed it at the beginning of Peace Walker, and he was pretty clued up on Snake's personal details, including knowledge of his exact age. --Bluerock 19:38, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
The name must be John, and John's nickname is Jack. Period.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
This topic was inactive for over 1 and 1/2 years. I think we should consider the matter closed (perhaps create a policy like other forums?) --Bluerock 07:47, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Founded Zanzibar Land?

The intro section of this article states that Big Boss "founded Zanzibar Land". I'm pretty sure that this is not true. From what I remember, unlike Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land was it's own nation before Big Boss came along. All he did was unite Zanzibar Land's inhabitants and turned the whole country into a military state that went at war with its neighboring countries and eventually became a world power. This should probably be corrected. - 06:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I don't seem to recall the game actually confirming it one way or the other. I'll have to check again. --Fantomas 10:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
The closest he really came to in terms of "founding" Zanzibar Land was the fact that he made it into a nation shortly after helping it gain independence from the USSR/Russian Federation. Other than that, he never really "found" Zanzibar Land.
Agreed with the above. Zanzibar Land, as the manual makes clear I recall, was already an autonomous zone of the USSR which began seeking independence in the early 90s. Then Big Boss comes along during the mercenary war and helps secure Zanzibar Lands independence, becoming its head of state afterwards.Ibizafan11 18:49, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Big Boss's exploits in the 70/80s

I think important events in Big Boss's backstory should be added here as they help you to further understand his character. I'm specifically thinking of his 'mercenary years' in the 70/80s (after he left the patriots) when he became a minor celebrity for his involvement in many african civil wars and regional conflicts. During this time he was seen as a hero by the masses as he only accepted contracts where a nations liberty was at stake(foreshadowing the creation of Outer Heaven; the symbol of his belief in absoloute freedom from governments and politicians and of course, The Patriots). Also its because of his amazing exploits during this period that he became known as a 'legendary mercenary' and 'greatest soldier of the 20th century'.

There should also be a personality section like the solid snake article has. Big Boss is a complex character and I think his motives, actions, beliefs etc should all be explained as many now mistakingly see him as the overarching hero in the series, when in reality he's a tragic hero/anti-hero at best with his actions and morals being far from admirable. His aim for a 'perfect world' of endless warfare could have been even worse than Zero's world of total control if he'd succeeded in his coup d'etat. The fact is getting rid of the patritos was not his only intention, he wanted soldiers to be able to 'like they should' even if meant plunging the world into anarchy and chaos. The guy was clearly unhinged by MG2:Solid Snake.

Yeah, though it's later revealed that he never intended for Metal Gear to start World War III (Most likely the Patriots made that up as an excuse to keep control), in fact, if anything, he intended for Metal Gear to be a deterrent/defense system (Ironically, what Metal Gear REX was deceptively labelled as to trick Hal Emmerich to work on it without knowing about the truth of it's purpose.). Besides, technically, Solid Snake wasn't really a "hero" (heck, he even said he wasn't a hero.), so everyone is technically an "Anti-hero".

Instructor comment?

before this gets added again could someone provide a source for this? I'd like this sorted out. --Drawde83 20:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"NEXT" Big Boss "look-alike" pic

I do not think that pic that been showing on the NEXT site is Big Boss, if you look at the eye color of the NEXT man, it is blue, and Big Boss' eye color in MGS 4 was clearly brown.

You're absolutely right. However, I thought Big Boss' eyes in MGS3 were blue? --Fantomas 20:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Exactly, Volgin even told The Boss that he didn't "like those blue eyes of him."
in MGS4 he was rebuilt from parts of liquid and solidus. Maybe one of them had brown eyes? --Drawde83 22:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
It's official that the Big Boss look-alike pic from the Next site is indeed Big Boss, and not a clone (well, canonically-speaking, that is. There is multiple Big Bosses in the trailer, but that was advertizing a Multiplayer mode that's probably not canon). It's his depiction in the new game "Peace Walker". Also, since the "Militares non Frontires" organization he leads is supposed to be the prototype for Outer Heaven, I moved the statement about using the funds created by Gene to create the Outer Heaven base AFTER the Peace Walker section instead of before for timeline reasons (If the "Militares non Frontires" organization is supposed to be the prototype for Outer Heaven, then, logically, the Outer Heaven base being created comes after.).
Just an offhand note, it may be possible that the change in eye color is artistic and non-cannonical, suggesting that Big Boss's noble and pure persona has been altered, and he is no longer as young and innocent as he once was... but then again maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see. TheDigitalMonk 05:53, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
It's interesting you should mention the change in eye colour as he's not the first character to have this happen. Roses's eyes change colour but the reason for that is revealed in MGS2 and Meryl's eyes change colour.User:Soul reaper
Kojima doesn't really understand cloning either. If Snake is a clone of Big Boss, then of course he has some Japanese in him (since Big Boss has on various occasions been known as a third-generation Japanese-American). The whole "donor egg from a Japanese assistant" story is not only redundant, but also inaccurate when one considers that none of the Japanese assistant's DNA would be in Snake anyway. Bluerock 14:43, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

How was Big Boss's DNA the key to the system?

From what I understand, Liquid needed someone who hadn't been plugged into the system like himself, his brother Snake, and his father Big Boss, the pure source. He would plugged in his DNA into the system which caused the incident in the Middle East but the Patriots marked it on a blacklist so it couldn't be used again, but then in South America he used Snake's DNA and it worked because their DNA isn't 100% indenticle which means it was on the blacklist but still able to get past security, but it didn't work because they needed the pure source from Big Boss. So when they plugged Big Boss's DNA into the system it was able to slip past security because it was already on the blacklist giving Liquid control of the system. Is that right?

I always thought it was because Big Boss was the "idol" of the Patriots, and his DNA was set up as the key because of how important he was. It should be noted, however, that it was actually Solidus' DNA that allowed Liquid access to the system in the end of Act 3.--Fantomas 09:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
That's because Solidus is pretty much the perfect clone of Big Boss, or as perfect as it can be without being the actual thing.
And Big Boss' DNA was the key because of how much of a hero he was to the Patriots, and how Zero set him up to support the Patriots.
The end of Act 1, when the soldiers freak out, is due to Liquid attempting to access the system. I haven't played MGS4 in a while, so I can't quite remember all the details, but I'm fairly certain that his DNA was blacklisted, like you said. I don't recall them using Old Snake's DNA in Act 2, so I can't remember what they did then.- Misterbunnsy 00:57, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Can we please take this off of protection mode?

We kinda need to edit the article to give what we currently know about his involvement in the Peace Walker mission from the trailers and especially the Demo. I mean, the Peace Walker seems to be severely under-developed, especially in regards to the fact that it's believed that the mysterious armed force invading Costa Rica is of CIA origin (in fact, the only real change is that the section now identifies Galvez and Paz as the clients who asked for Militaires Sans Frontires). However, I cannot make these edits due to it being protected, so can you please remove it so I can at least try to implement these changes?

Fantomas refuses to accept the fact that Big Boss's last name is NOT Doe. Even the Database made it clear that Big Boss' last name is NOT Doe. But Fantomas is too stubborn to be reasonable and is too slow to tell the difference between a joke and a truthful comment. Because of that, he locked the page. -- 16:19, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
Big Boss says it himself to Para-Medic in MGS3 (and later says his name is John to Ocelot), and it was also confirmed in Book R, which came with the special edition of MGS3. The head AI of the Patriots is also called JD (which EVA remarks is short for John Doe) which we can easily assume was named after Big Boss as he was a "messiah" figure for the organization. The database simply saying John is not substantial enough evidence for a counter-argument due to the database's reputation as being slightly contradictory, and the fact that it does not state that his name is not Doe, it just fails to mention it. If it provided contradictory information instead of just failing to mention it, you would have a much stronger case for a counter argument. --Fantomas 23:03, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
It's called a JOKE. Paramedic then says that her name is Jane Doe. We all know that that is false. Big Boss' name being John is called a COINCIDENCE. The AI is called John Doe because it's basically a representation of being unknown and anonymous. That R book is also unreliable. Were you in Special Ed when you were a child? Is your IQ 70? The answer to both questions must be yes since you can't even tell the difference between a joke and a serious comment.

And here is the Database' reference to John Doe and Jane Doe. Do you see Big Boss and Pamaramedic being mentioned, my slow friend?

-- 14:09, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

And of course, resorting to personal attacks because you can't handle a basic argument, and writing off fair evidence just because you refuse to believe it as true. This is why we can't have dicussions with you, because you believe that you are right no matter what anyone else says. --Fantomas 14:17, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
Of course we can't have dicussions. Discussions on the other hand is something we can do. And you believe you are right no matter what anyone else says. You are intransigent -- 15:27, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
See what I mean? All you do is poke fun at people. You can't help yourself. One small simple spelling mistake and you have to point it out like that person is an idiot. And I am certainly not intransigent, as I have on several occassions provided means to make everyone happy, such as moving topics of debate to the trivia section to highlight how divided people are on certain matters, and even on the Big Boss article itself I created an entire new section to show how his name is still a matter of debate. Stop chucking big words around to make youself look smart. --Fantomas 17:13, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Although I think the flaming is quite a bit silly here, I do have to agree that Big Boss's real name can NOT be confirmed as John Doe and here's why. We have three instances in which the name John Doe appears. Firstly, Naked Snake tells Para-Medic that his name is John Doe. When he says this, he is most likely joking because he's reluctant to tell Para-Medic his real name. The name "John Doe" is the exact opposite of a real name because it's really a dignified way of saying "Anonymous." The joke is that Para-Medic wants to know Naked Snake's real name, so instead of just saying "no," he makes a joke out of it by replacing his real last name, whatever it may be, with "Doe," a comical way of saying "sorry Para-Medic, I'm not telling you my real name right now." Para-Medic then plays on the joke by saying that her name is Jane Doe (which we know it's not, because her last name is Clark). Therefore, for the same reason that Para-Medic's name is not "Jane Doe," Big Boss's name can not be concluded to be "John Doe" by that particular call. The second instance in which we see the name John Doe pop up is the king of the Patriot AIs. This is most likely once again a dry joke because the patriots are in fact no one. They are nothing more than a series of computer programs, and therefore, they are simply a nameless, lifeless entity: John Doe. Now, for artistic purposes, it's highly possible that Kojima chose to associate JD with Naked Snake, but this can not be used as a definitive conclusion that Naked Snake's real name was John Doe. The third and final time in which we hear John Doe in the metal gear universe is in the R book. This book is however, an unreliable source of information. It's a very obscure document that was most likely not compiled by Kojima himself. In all honesty, the reason that Big Boss's name is listed as John Doe is probably because one of the Japanese developers who was working on the book probably did not understand the cultural joke that Snake made with Para-Medic (since I believe the name John Doe is not used for anonymous people in Japan). The developer probably did not understand this cultural joke and assumed that Naked Snake was serious when he said his name was John Doe, and then proceeded to put this false piece of information in an obscure document that was probably not thoroughly inspected by Kojima himself. So with that being said, I would like to request that Fantomas unlock the Big Boss page. I understand that you probably still accept that Big Boss's name is John Doe, and that's fine as an opinion or personal conjecture, but the truth about Big Boss's name is currently too ambiguous for a single definitive answer to exist. I would like to remind you that the purpose of a wiki is not to present a single point of view, but to rather encompass all legitimate takes on an argument. The proper solution to this situation would be to list "John/Jack" as the name, and then directly beneath it, list "John Doe (Possible)." This way, in the nature of a wiki, both leading arguments are represented, as both have legitimate arguments. Also, locking the page for that one specific reason makes it hard to fix other parts of the article that may be misleading or even incorrect. I'm not saying that you have to accept that Big Boss's name is not John Doe, but you do need to accept that the answer is not definitive, and that a solid argument can be presented that suggests that his last name is unknown (as I have shown above). As long as the issue is unsettled, both sides should be represented, so please unlock this page.--TheDigitalmonk 07:30, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

See IP? This is how you structure a legitimate argument. Although I'm not entirely comfortable with you just assuming Book R is probably not a reliable source of information with no real evidence to suggest that it isn't. The fact that it comes from Kojima Productions, and doesn't contradict anything we already know makes it reliable enough. Although I am considering striking it off the list of sources for John Doe as I can't find a decent translation of it anywhere. Another thing you need to understand in my locking of the page: the IP above is incredibly stubborn, and once openly admitted that he has a tendency to remove things from pages repeatedly purely to annoy me. It can be very frustrating. --Fantomas 15:30, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
On a related note, I can distinctly remember Big Boss being referred to as John Doe way before the release of MGS3, perhaps even during the time of the MSX2 releases, but I can't for the life of me think where I could have possibly seen this. If anyone knows of this source, I think it could possibly help settle the whole debate. I'm 99% sure of this, as I can remember at the time thinking then that it was a strange name to give Big Boss.--Bluerock 15:49, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
Well, I printed out the MSX2 manual for Metal Gear, and I read through the Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake manual online, so I can confirm that, at least in those sources, they never identified Big Boss's name as "John Doe." However, I don't have the official missions handbook, so maybe you saw it in that. And Digital Monk does have a point, the John Doe conversation was probably intended to be a joke. Other than the fact that Paramedic's name is actually Dr. Clark, not "Jane Doe," the term "Jane Doe" is a term used for a female anonymous soldier/individual (just as "John Doe" is the masculine term for an unidentified soldier/individual.). JD's name was also intended to be a reference to the inevitable fact that the Patriots are "no one" (As Major Zero had decided to let machines carry out his will after his eventual death.). As for this "R" book, I have come across some sites where, despite it being official works (and thus, virtually infallable), the info is quite flawed (IE, and some of its information). Of course, I'm not going to deny that it's a reliable source, just that we need to take it with a grain of salt, just in case. Weedle McHairybug 19:18, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
I agree that it is unlikely that his actual surname is Doe. You're also right about it not saying in the available translations of the MSX2 manuals. But the possible fact that Big Boss's name was stated as such, even before the production of MGS3, would lead me to think that it can't just be some unofficial source that stated this. Upon first playing MGS3, the point at which he stated his name as John Doe surprised me, as it made me think back to this mysterious source that I had seen a while back, and was thinking "Wow, are they actually going to make this his real name?" Anyway, for all I know I could be talking complete nonsense, but I'm so sure of it that it's really doing my head in! I hope at least some other person on the wiki knows a bit more about it. Or you could just dismiss me as a raving madman, lol. --Bluerock 11:33, January 3, 2010 (UTC)
It makes me laugh at how butt-hurt some people get over the possibility that Big Boss's real name is John Doe! You know, there probably ARE real people about there who are called John Doe, just because its the term used for unidentified bodies that doesnt mean its ridiculous for a real person to have the name!! Fact is, theres plenty of evidence to suggest his name IS John Doe. He tells Para-Medic he isnt joking when he gives his name as John Doe and later confirms his first name is John. Not to mentiont he 'R' booklet, which is official Konami material. Besides I actually think it would be perfect for his name to be John Doe, for him to be literally 'no one'. It totally fits with the legend that surrounds him. Throughout the series Big Boss has always been a kind of mythic figure so the name works well I think.
That being said I agree theres not enough evidence to list Doe as his surname on his page, so its best left just as John. Just thought I'd vent my annoyance at all the people who freak out about the idea that he is ACTUALLY CALLED John Doe and that the convo with Para-Medic was more than just a joke. Ibizafan11 18:42, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
It's interesting that think that the conversation with Para-Medic was possibly Naked Snake being serious. When I was younger, I used to think he was being serious and then that Para-Medic was related to him, until my brother told me otherwise and I never thought about it again.
While the R Booklet is official Kojima material, he has other material out there and not all of it matches up to each other. In fact, there are quite a few discrepancies in the MGS universe that have not been addressed.
I once saw somewhere that someone said his name was John T Miles, so who knows? Until there is evidence to support the "John Doe" theory, we have to just keep his first name. - Misterbunnsy 01:12, March 17, 2012 (UTC)


Are we certain that he was affiliated with all these groups before Portable Ops? -- Bluerock 18:32, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Well, the way the article was written before I implemented the Affiliations section with those groups seemed to imply that he was affiliated with them before Portable Ops. Of course, there may also be that chance that he also did those missions both before and after Portable Ops.) Weedle McHairybug 18:38, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
BTW, not that I necessarily object to your decision to have the whole Vietnam/70 missions thing be after the Les Enfants Terribles event, but there is some difficulty for that to exist in there (I know that Big Boss is pretty much legendary, but I'm pretty sure that even he would have some difficulty in completing 70 Vietnam War related missions in less than a year (since 1973 is the year where the United States began deporting their armed forces from Vietnam.). Maybe we should place some of the info relating to Vietnam before Portable Ops (since that is still technically before Big Boss became a Mercenary in proper), and place the other half afterwards, saying that after the war had ended, he completed over 70 missions (as it never specified the time range). Weedle McHairybug 04:19, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
I put the missions after portable ops and les enfants terribles because this is what was stated in the mgs4 database. Since the database was released before peace walker was announced, there is only mention of him becoming a mercenary afterwards and no specific details, except for the conflicts in Africa (rhodesia and mozambique). The whole 'over 70 missions' thing comes from the MG2 manual, though looking more closely at it, the number is meant to represent the missions he completed by at least the 1980s, so I will alter the info a little to reflect this. -- Bluerock 09:58, December 5, 2009 (UTC)


Really need help resetting the article to an earlier edit as someone screwed it right up! --Bluerock 11:46, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Tried to fix but really stumped now. Thanks a lot anonymous contributors! --Bluerock 12:57, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Did that do it? --Fantomas 13:03, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that seems to have done the trick, but I don't really understand how it got in such a state in the first place. --Bluerock 13:13, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Is there a way to stop anonymous users from editing Big Boss' page? Someone keeps putting references to disgusting things and writes about Big Boss' "parts"! It's just getting seriously disturbing! The vandalism was made by, some stupid anonymous user. - Agent M 09:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

It happened once. I looked over the history for the Big Boss page and this is the first time it has happened in a while. Our first action when something like this happens is to block the user. Looking at the "block log" for that particular IP, I already did that. If it's a constant problem we'll protect the page, but spammers come and go, it's nothing to worry about at this stage. --Fantomas 12:12, March 26, 2010 (UTC)


Concerning Big Boss's prominent role in the plot for MGS, I'm one of the proponents of the argument that the 'appearances' section of the info box should be just for physical appearances only. --Bluerock 17:24, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

It's complicated, but I think I may need to re-word it to something other than "Appears In". For instance, I actually think Dr. Madnar does deserve MGS4 mentioned in his "Appears In" because he does seem somewhat important to the games events, but the Snake's don't deserve MPO mentioned because they don't really appear or have any bearing on what's going on.... I'm not sure how to approach it. I guess we could just go with the whole "if the don't physically appear than we don't mention them" idea, as it does seem like the easiest option in my opinion. --Fantomas 18:53, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, it's a bit tricky. Regarding Madnar, he at least physically did something within the plot and events of MGS4 (albeit, behind the scenes), whereas Big Boss is still just a semi-conscious biomort at the time of MGS, whose actions have no bearing on the plot. --Bluerock 19:04, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Well, unlike his cameo or reference or whatever in MGS2, in MGS, appearance or not, he was technically responsible for the formation of the Genome Army, and his body was pretty much the main plotpoint (seeing how his body was the ransom to prevent a full-scale nuclear strike from REX during the Shadow Moses Revolt, and the nuclear threat was a pretty big plotpoint.), so at least in that regard, he did something within the plot. It may have not been physically, but still, at least it's better than the reference to Volgin in MPO, Big Boss in MGS2, and the reference to the Les Enfants Terribles project in MPO. Weedle McHairybug 19:28, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, on my logic I guess Big Boss contributed to the event by simply being. --Bluerock 19:44, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
The Boss contributed to the events of Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4 by simply "being" too. -- 22:20, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
You're somewhat right. The main difference would be that Big Boss was actually alive and that he is a main part of the plot from start to finish. The Boss had been long dead by then, and is only mentioned at the end of Act 3 in MGS4. Also, she is never mentioned in the original games despite being the main reason behind Big Boss's actions. Anyways, like I said at the start, I do think the 'Appearances' should mean physical appearances only. --Bluerock 22:54, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Japanese/World War II?

Does anyone know whether it is confirmed or not whether Big Boss is a third-generation Japanese-American? I seem to recall coming across this info several times throughout the games, but its non-inclusion in the article seems to suggest its canonicity is disputed. It was my belief that he was always meant to be of Japanese descent. I'm also aware that it is obviously meant to make the character more appealing to the Japanese audience, but just wondering why no one has mentioned it.

By the way, I was annoyed when Kojima decided that the fertilized eggs from which the Les Enfants Terribles were born, came from a Japanese woman, to explain Vulcan Raven's comments to Solid Snake, regarding him having "blood from the east". Being a clone of Big Boss, he would of course have some Japanese blood in him, and the entire Japanese fertilized egg story is just redundant and inconsistent in terms of story. --Bluerock 10:54, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about the Japanese part, but I think that the part where Big Boss lied about his age in order to be drafted into the military is definitely canon, making at least his bio in the Metal Gear Solid Official Mission Handbook canon as well. (Unless I'm extremely missing the pitch here, the age to draft into the military during World War II was about 18-21 years of age.). I mean, Kojima stated that he was in his thirties when Snake Eater happened, Metal Gear Solid 4 implies that Big Boss was born during the 1930s. This would make perfect sense in regards to Big Boss (or in the time period's case, John) lying about his age in order to participate in World War II (Certainly moreso than Liquid stating in-game that Big Boss was in his late fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles project was performed, as having to lie about age would be completely pointless [why bother lying about your age in regards to joining the military if your true age is already up and beyond the age limit requirement, anyways? I mean, assuming that Big Boss was indeed in his late fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles Project occured, I'm pretty sure that Big Boss would have been, at minimum, around 25-28 years of age by the time World War II started, and at maximum, 29-32 years of age by the time it ended.]. So I'm pretty sure that, thanks to that, then at least Big Boss's account on the MGS manual, if not the bios in themselves, would be considered canon. Not only that, but this also means that the whole thing about Big Boss being in his thirties was not a retcon at all, despite what many people popularly claim. Weedle McHairybug 04:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
The Metal Gear Solid Official Mission Handbook is NOT canon. None of the games or the database ever mention Big Boss serving in World War II or being Japanese-American. That handbook also says that Decoy Octopus was a Mexican CIA agent. Obviously, that's false.--Sknmak 13:36, February 23, 2010 (UTC)[2]
To be honest, I really doubt the Metal Gear Solid 4 Database is all that canon, anyways. I mean, in that same source, Solidus was stated to have erased Raiden's memories, even though Metal Gear Solid 2 had not only revealed that it was actually The Patriots who had erased Raiden's memories, but his reactions when this was revealed implied that he was never aware of what the Patriots did and was legitimately upset when he discovered this. At best, the MGS4DB is in the gray area in terms of canon, so I really suggest you not use it to prove whether something's canon or not. Maybe if Metal Gear Solid 2 was given a remake, we could let that slide, but since it wasn't, MGS4DB, as far as I'm concerned, is in the gray area, at least.
Besides, my point was that even if it wasn't canon (It was when Metal Gear Solid was initially released, at least), the mere fact that it mentioned that Big Boss had lied about his age would have already discounted Liquid's statement about how he was in his fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles performed the project. Weedle McHairybug 13:49, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Since there seems to be no official sources for Big Boss's Japanese heritage (besides the controvertial Mission Handbook), I think we should just let the subject rest for now. We will have to assume that this has now been retconned away in favour of the Japanese assistant story during Les Enfants Terribles? (I have added this info to Solid and Liquid's article on how this explanation is possible). That is unless "Peace Walker" gives us any more details, but we will have to wait and see. --Bluerock 21:42, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough about the Japanese aspect. I'd argue that the part in his bio about fighting in World War II, at least was canon though. There isn't really anything to suggest that he didn't participate in World War II. Actually, Portable Ops even briefly referred to it at one point. When Elisa and Big Boss meet, Big Boss comments that Elisa was "pretty young" to be in Gene's Rebellion, and Elisa responds with: "You were out on the battlefield when you were my age, weren't you, Snake? Or should I say... Big Boss?" That line suggests that he had been fighting on the battlefield before even the Korean War, and possibility that Big Boss was fighting at a young age. Weedle McHairybug 22:48, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
The MGS4DB isn't totally inaccurate. It is correct on most things like Dr. Madnar, Solid Snake and Sokolov. At the very least, it's more reliable than that handbook. Anyway, none of the games mention Big Boss serving in World War 2. Maybe he lied about his age to fight in Korea. We know he was born sometime in the 1930s. Maybe he was born in like 1936 and fought in Korea when he was fifteen. --Sknmak 13:40, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
The main problem with your theory about serving in Korea at an early age is that Hideo Kojima implied in the Metal Gear Solid 3 commentaries that Big Boss (or rather, Naked Snake) at the time of the mission was 33-35 (he mentioned that Big Boss was the same age as Solid Snake in Metal Gear Solid 2 during the time of the Virtuous Mission.), going by that, as well as the fact that US Involvement in the Korean War started in 1950, would make Big Boss 19 at the earliest, and at the latest 22 (19's iffy, since whether that's eligible depends on whether it is 18 or 21 that one has to enlist). That's even assuming that Big Boss participated right at the start of the Korean War instead of being moved in at some point between 1951 and 1953. Also, in Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops, Elisa mentioned that Big Boss might have been around her age when he was on the battlefield (and Elisa is heavily implied to have five years left until she reached Adulthood, or at least sexual maturity.), this means that Big Boss would most likely have been significantly below the age range that he was placed in (like about thirteen or sixteen, if not younger). Her just mentioning the Korean War wouldn't really make sense seeing how 19-22 is not really below the age limit (it's between/above), while as the conversation was meant to imply that it was supposed to be younger than the age limit by a significant amount (As Elisa/Ursula was implied to be significantly underage.). Weedle McHairybug 16:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think Elisa/Ursuala was ever really implied to be younger than her late teens, certainly not underage anyway. Campbell would still consider her a bit young for Big Boss, and Big Boss would still see her as a kid. --Bluerock 19:51, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Campbell kinda mentioned something about her waiting five years," or something like that. Weedle McHairybug 19:56, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
True, but that doesn't mean 5 years until she turns 18. Anyway, as for the Official Mission Handbook, the author did take a few liberties in regards to fleshing out some of the characters backgrounds, especially Decoy Octopus. Also, there was hardly any info on Big Boss's early years, except for "BEST SOLDIER EVER" and being a member of like a bajillion special forces groups. Kojima probably wasn't planning to expand on Big Boss's history back then so he gave the author permission to do so (or Konami did anyway). Therefore, I don't think we can say he participated in World War II until it is officially said so, however possible it may be. --Bluerock 20:01, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough. Still, the part on Big Boss lying about his age to serve in WWII was a pretty big hint that he was born in the 1930s. Weedle McHairybug 20:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, in the official character biographies for MGS1, Big Boss is stated to have "died" in his 70s (in 1999), so he could have been born anywhere in the 1920s based on this. But Kojima has retconned him to be a decade younger apparently. --Bluerock 20:11, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
This is also the reason that Liquid claimed he was in his late 50s during the Les Enfants Terribles project. --Bluerock 20:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Well, I'll be darned. Although it is strange that Kojima didn't seem to correct the writer in regards to that issue. I know Kojima didn't plan on expand on Big Boss's history, but that still doesn't explain why he didn't correct the guy when he wrote the manual? If he is indeed involved in the creation of the manual in the first place, why let him claim he was born in the 1930s, which at the same time would imply that he was defeated in his sixties. Weedle McHairybug 20:27, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
To be honest, I doubt that Kojima really took the time to proofread the book, it is afterall a strategy guide and not a definitive encyclopedia of info (having said that, the MGS4 database is pretty contradictory itself.) Also, his foreword in the book was not written specifically for the guide, its just a random passage he wrote on the awesomeness of Metal Gear Solid. Its funny though that the author of the book retroactively got Big Boss's age correct. --Bluerock 20:35, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Solid Snake Naked Snake appearance and Age

How would tell the difference between Solid Snake and Naked Snake(MGS3) second opinion. In terns of personallity and appearance? If Big Boss was in his late fifties. Should he be older than The Boss? He would at least 41 or 43 in MGS3.

Big Boss was implied to be in his late-20s to early-30s during MGS3, since he was born sometime in the 1930s (as shown on his grave stone in MGS4). --Bluerock 20:50, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Should we list Big Boss's Birthdate as 1935?

In Peace Walker, Galvez, or rather, Vladimir Zadornov, after revealing both his true nature and his actual plan for the MSF's mission, states that Big Boss is going to die at age 39, just like El Che, implying that Big Boss was born in 1935. I was wondering if we should add it in, as the last time I tried to do evidence towards a character's age (Elisa/Ursula being 13-16, due to Campbell stating she had six years until she reached sexual maturity), it was removed due to original research. Weedle McHairybug 18:29, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

doesn't it strike anyone else as preposterous that big boss would be in the green berets at 10-12. the fact you used 10 to 12 shows that you didn't know for certain. Why do you think Big Boss was there at the start of the war anyway?? --Drawde83 22:22, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe he meant he "died" when he killed the Boss? "Ever since I killed the Boss with my own hands... I was already dead." This would add another 10 years to his life, which would mean he became a Green Beret at age 20 or 22. Also, how much of this information did you get from the actual games, and not outdated manuels? Or just keep it as it is; he participated in the Korean War as a teenager. Makes sense to me. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't teenagers lieing about their ages common back then? -John- 11:04, June 17, 2010
Some of the "information" from the "Outdated manuals" was also included in the MGS4 Database, which could have easily been ignored by it altogether. And anyways, Big Boss already mentioned something about being a former Green Beret during Metal Gear Solid 3 (He mentioned that he was part of them during the Korean War, and that his Green Beret skills were a bit rusty.) Weedle McHairybug 15:20, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, then just keep the article as it is. John Doe was in his late teens when he fought in the Korean War and became a Green Beret. -John- 13:18, June 17, 2010 (ETC)
To clarify things, Big Boss actually says his CQC skills were a bit rusty, due to being in the Green Berets. Since I haven't played Peace Walker yet, does the game explicitly state his age? Could they have just meant a similar age to that of Che when he was killed (i.e. late 30s/early 40s)? --Bluerock 18:13, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
It was mentioned by Galvez, or rather, Vladimir Zadornov, when Vladimir exposes that he set both MSF and Coldman up. I might warn you, though, as it does contain spoilers.
Russian Soldier: Data entry for Mammal Pod complete.
Zadornov: Dead at age 39, just like El Che. Ironic, isn't it?
Weedle McHairybug 18:16, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So I guess the Boss trained Naked Snake at the age of 15 then, according to the timeline. I wonder if he was regular army at first and became a Green Beret later? --Bluerock 18:22, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
He didnt join the Green Berets until after The Boss left him. In the Virtuous Mission he says "I've been in the Green Berets for the past few years". He says he fought in Korea but he never says he was a Green Beret back then, which makes sense because the Green Berets didnt even exist int he 50s 18:16, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to dredge this back up again but the Green Berets were first established in 1952 when Big Boss was 17. From what I understand a person can try out for the Green Berets without first being a regular soldier (or at least they could in those days) so I would say that he went straight into the Green Berets at age 17 and fought in the Korean War. In times of war the Military wants all the manpower they can get so it's not suprising that he be sent straight to war shortly after joining. The MGS4 database says he met the Boss in 1950 so no doubt the skills he learned from her would have helped him excel in combat training and get into the Green Berets with no probelem. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 23:47, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
Just to expand on my earlier point, the current age of eligibilty for the green berets is 17 provided a candidate acieves a certain score in the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course. However during the Korean war the minimum age for joining any military force was 18 and a half meaning that either Big Boss only participated in the very latter stages of the Korean War or he lied about his age since we know from Kojima's comments relating to MGSV that he will be 49 in 1984 putting his birth date sometime in 1935 (in case there was any doubt). --MOB-4-Life (talk) 18:43, July 1, 2013 (UTC)


I'm sorry, but how does a fully grown man grow 12 cms? That was impossible the last time that I checked... it's simply not possible for him to go from 180 cm to 192 cm.

The former height was given in the manual for MG2, but this has probably been retconned with the latter height from his MGS1 profile. However, perhaps the prosthetic limbs he supposedly recieved made him taller? Same goes for the Ninja/Gray Fox. --Bluerock 15:46, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
Interesting, that could be the case, but then that also brings up another question... how did Snake grow 4 cms between MG2 and MGS1? In MG2 he's listed as 178 cm, and in MGS onwards he's 182 cm. 16:02, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think its completely impossible that one could increase in height very slightly, but exactly how I'm not sure. -- Bluerock 16:21, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
He grew up to his adult height of 5ft11. From the year 1964 when he took part in 'Operation Snake Eater: MGS 3' to the year 1999 (or maybe 2013) he was 5ft11 (1m80) and then he grew up to 6ft3.5 (1m92) after the Post-Manhattan Incident in 2014. Is that right? 12:45, January 8, 2011 (UTC)
It's more likely that the new height of 1.92m from MGS1 retcons that of 1.80m originally given in MG2. --Bluerock 13:58, January 8, 2011 (UTC)
The leaked info from MGS 3 gives Naked Snake 6ft5 (1m96):
Volgin (given 6ft7) looks one head taller than Naked Snake in MGS 3. (from 5:02)
Either the producers just did not care about the given datas or they really thought
the difference between two inches is that big. Maybe we should add Naked Snake’s height
from the leaked info too. 18:35, January 8, 2011 (UTC)


While it is not confirmed that Big Boss ever used The Boss's Patriot against Solid Snake, it is not impossible. There is no way one can accurately identify the gun that he is using due to the original hardware's graphical limitations. If Snake stands in the open, in MG1, Big Boss will fire his gun continuously, much like a machinegun. He only fires one a time when he can't get a clear shot. His character sprite also shows a weapon much larger than a simple handgun. In MG2, he could be using an Uzi, but again, the graphical limitations do not make it clear. Another example of this, is that Solid Snake always appears to be equipped with the same weapon, in both games, whatever gun he has equipped. Since it isn't confirmed either way, it indeed shouldn't be mentioned in the article, but Big Boss's in-game sprite can't really be used to disregard the possibility of him having used the Patriot. --Bluerock 22:26, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

He does fire his gun continuously in MG but definitely not like a machinegun. He fires a shot, then hides behind a crate. The gun he has in MG2 is definitely a machinegun. -- 11:33, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why did the Cobras reject him?

How comes the cobra unit rejected Snake from joining, when they all clearly knew he had skill? I really want to know - Dirty Duck

"This is one is still just a child. Too pure for us Cobras. He has not yet found an emotion to carry into battle." - The Boss --Fantomas 17:36, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, glad i know now, would of been cool if he joined, what do you think his emotion could of been? - Dirty Duck
Big Boss was a "host of many sorrows" and after he fought The Sorrow, he was told that "The spirit of the warrior would always be with him." This is how he was able to defeat The Joy at the end of the game. He found his emotion and it was The Sorrow. You can tell because he cries at the end of the game as he is saluting The Boss's grave. This is just my theory anyways. Also, The Sorrow is the only Cobra who tries to help Big Boss throughout the game. This is just what I think. Also, if you notice Big Boss's face, the Sorrow was the ONLY Cobra that he was affraid of. He faced his greatest fear, the fear of death, and that's how he got his emotion.
I've always wondered what sort of emotion Big Boss could've had if he had been accepted into the Cobra Unit. I'm not sure what the Anon above is trying to suggest as his emotion however. EzioA7 04:34, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Big Boss's Grave?!

OK, well im no genius or anything, but in MGS4 it is shown that his grave is to the right of The Boss's greve, BUT in MGS3 when Big Boss visits her grave, there are already graves to bothe the left and right of hers, a flaw in the game? - Dirty Duck 20:49, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Dirty Duck

I'm not a genius either and I noticed that. I guess we shouldn't worry about it. -- 21:14, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
Well, we can safely assume the gravestones are only placeholders, they likely contain no actual bodies. Big Boss' one was probably put there by The Patriots, so we can just assume they moved whatever gravestone was there and put Big Boss' one in it's place. Of course, I'm assuming all of this, so I could be way off. But, whatever, it's a theory, right? --Fantomas 23:31, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, but it actually does make sense though. It's not a bad theory.-- 01:34, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

The Boss' and Big Boss' Snake Scars

I haven't played Peace Walker yet, but I noticed Big Boss had a snake-like scar on his chest in a trailer, like The Boss did. I also noticed the character Snake was based off of, Snake Plissken from Escape from New York, had a cobra tattoo on his stomach. Is there any official correlation between the two?

Zeronamous 00:03, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether there's any official word on the scar being related to Plissken's tattoo, but the similarity has been mentioned in "Behind the scenes." --Bluerock 10:49, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of Snake shaped Scars....

Ok I have not played Peace Walker yet but I need some clarification.

What the H is a Jigsaw. Did he hid a piece of a puzzle in his scar to throw at some dude to get away or what. Please define Jigaw. It makes no sense. Otacon1514 10:46, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

Lol. A jigsaw is a fairly common cutting tool. The puzzle was named after it, having once been used to cut the pieces for it. Snake presumably used it to saw through the bars of the cell door, if the player doesn't get the card key from Strangelove (I've never actually seen it in use, since I got the card on my first playthrough). --Bluerock 10:52, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
Durr! I feel extremely stuping right now. : D Thanks 4 answering my question. Brain hasn't been working lately.
Again DURRRR! Otacon1514 22:37, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss's Metal Gear sprite.

Hi. I think we really should upload a sprite of Big Boss from the MSX version of Metal Gear. That way, I think we could definitely see what the article meant by his having the eyepatch on his right side. Trying to find it on gameplay videos is a chore, so we need it pretty easy. Weedle McHairybug 23:29, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Big Boss Never Had a Band-Aid

"In the survival viewer during Operation Snake Eater, Naked Snake's medical history is blank by default. When he meets The Sorrow in his realm, only the spirits of soldiers he killed since the beginning of the Virtuous Mission appears. This indicates that Big Boss had never been wounded or killed anyone prior to the Virtuous Mission. "

Really now. This is a ridiculous thing to infer from the blank medical history.

Cobra Unit = inspiration?

In the Operation Snake Eater section, it was stated that he was given the codename "Naked Snake" in honor of The Boss's Cobra Unit. However, can someone cite that? I heard of a somewhat different reason. Namely, the "Naked" part was stated twice (once immediately before commencing the Virtuous Mission, and once in an optional conversation in I think the Virtuous Mission) to be in reference to the concept of on-site procurement, and "Snake" (stated in I believe the same optional conversation as the one alluded to before with "Naked") is in reference to crawling in grass. I mean, if someone has a source for the codename being a reference to the Cobra Unit, by all means, add it in. Weedle McHairybug 13:56, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Here's the relevant dialogue:

Major Tom: "This will be a sneaking mission. You must not be seen by the enemy. You must leave no trace of your presence. Is that clear? This kind of infiltration is the FOX unit's speciality. [sic] In other words, weapons and equipment are procure on-site...that goes for food as well. You're completely naked, just as your name implies."

Snake: "Great. Now I see why you asked me if I like snakes. I suppose calling me 'Snake' was your idea of a joke, too."

Major Tom: "No, there's a good reason for that. I'll tell you later, when the time is right."


Major Tom: "There's one more person I want to introduce you to, Snake."

Snake: "?"

Major Tom: "Speaking of snakes, you remember The Boss, don't you? A legendary soldier, and your mentor. Actually, it was The Boss that got the DCI's authorization in the first place. She's going to be serving as FOX's mission advisor."


The Boss: "The only thing we can believe in with absolute certainty... the mission, Jack."

Snake: "All right. But do me a favor."

The Boss: "What is it?"

Snake: "Call me Snake."

The Boss: "Snake? Oh, right, your code name is Snake. It suits you well."

Major Tom: "That's right. The legendary unit that The Boss put together during World War II was a snake. The Cobra Unit...a group of heroes that brought the war to an end and saved the world. As long as you've got a legendary hero backing you up, you'll be fine.

--Bluerock 14:16, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Okay. I did find another Codec conversation indicating another inspiration for the codename, though:
Snake: Major, what about my codename?
Zero: You mean 'Naked Snake'?
Snake: Yes. What does it mean?
Zero: It's because snakes slither through grass, unnoticed to those around them.
Snake: No, I mean the "naked" part.
Zero: It means without embelishment, devoid of specified quality - in other words, basic.
Snake: Why's that my code name?
Zero: I explained that the Virtuous Mission is designed to test the effectiveness of FOX, right?
Snake: Right
Zero: And the procedure used for this mission will represent the modus operandi of FOX for future missions, in other words...
Snake: The essence of FOX, naked and pure?
Zero: Exactly. And there's the fact that you went in practically naked - no weapons, no equipment.
Snake: I see. Means more than I realized.
Zero:Yes, clever isn't it? But don't leave yourself naked to the enemy.
Snake: Roger that.
Weedle McHairybug 14:25, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
There's probably some truth in both explanations. Since the Cobras were special forces, they probably did a fair amount of sneaking themselves. --Bluerock 14:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Does Big Boss have access to Codec?

Why doesn't use it to talk to Snake?Blix1ms0ns (talk) 22:26, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

No, Big Boss does not have access to Codec. Codec were used by soliders in the early 2000's and was given and first used by Solid Snake in 2005. Big Boss "died" and his body was recovered 1999. He has been in cold stoarge since then until 2014. Solid-Boss (talk) 00:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Phantom Pain is not GZ

A KJP employee on Twitter confirmed that The Phantom Pain is not Ground Zeroes, but he specifically stated that he did not say it wasn't Metal Gear. My best guess is MGS5, when comatose BB is kept as a vegetable by Zero. It doesn't matter that he would be missing an arm, because he would just get another from Liquid/Solidus later. I know it's just speculation, but we may want to mention that Phantom Pain is a disguised MGS5 trailer, not GZ. Or omit the section altogether. 04:43, December 8, 2012 (UTC)


I consider the page with Big Boss and MGS Ground Zeroes and MGS5, whoever wrote it mispelled the word in the paragraph 'Been' but also to which it states that MGS5 (if Phantom Pain IS MGS related), that it's UNRELATED to Ground Zeroes? That's bullshit. Kojima can be quoted on saying that Ground Zeroes is a prequel to MGS5.... People have to do better research.

(Quoted from Big Boss' page) - "The character's appearance is implied to be Big Boss from the physical features, although it is not made clear as to whether it is a disguised trailer for Metal Gear Solid 5 or a new game for the PlayStation Vita.[63] It has, however, bee confirmed that it is not related to '''Ground Zeroes"

^Whoever made that, in what I bolded? I'm calling out as an idiot :P If MGS5 is Phantom Pain, then I'd say it's definitely bloody related to GZ, not directly, but MGS5 is the direct sequel of GZ, GZ is made with it being a Pre-MGS5 in mind. It is highly related to GZ again, IF Phantom Pain is infact MGS5(Which it more than likely is).

Twitter post, Sept 2012.

I'm not a member nor do I take charge of editing here, but wanted to point it out.

- MGS Fan

Second Stint in Vietnam

In the Metal Gear Solid 4 Database it says that Big Boss joined an LRRP (long-range reconnaissance patrol) in Vietnam and fought alongside SOG (Special Operations Group), the Green Berets, and the Wild Geese. This information appears after the information regarding the LET project (1972) indicating that all of this occured after that year. The thing is that LRRPs were integrated into the newly formed 75th Ranger Infantry Regiment in 1969. Either there is a mistake in the database in that the information is correct but the placing is wrong or he actually served in the 75th Ranger Infantry Regiment rather that an LLRP. I have placed the information about the LLRP in the Post Snake Eater portion of the article and the other info in the paragraphs detailing events in the early 70s since that is what the Database information dictates but I want to get some other opinions on it because although this is the life history of a fictional character it should still be as accurate as possible. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 11:19, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

Since his exploits for those various groups don't have an exact date (beyond being prior to the late '80s), my feeling is that it could just be an error in placement. This particular part of his past originates as far back as the game manual for Metal Gear 2 (1990), though it is stated that he fought with the LRRP in Vietnam before SOG, Green Berets or the Wild Geese.
The Database is the first source (as far as I know) to try and place these and more recent story developments all into one account. It keeps all the old MG2 info listed together, and thus places them all at a similar point in time. However, they actually could have occurred at different times in relation to Big Boss's newer back story elements, such as Les Enfants Terribles and San Hieronymo.
In short, without a defined date, and with LRRP only existing prior to 1969, my feeling is that it should be post-Snake Eater, pre-San Hieronymo.
--Bluerock (talk) 12:07, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that info man I didn't know that it had also appeared in the Metal Gear 2 manual. In that case I think it's best to leave it the way it is then i.e. LRRP between Snake Eater and San Hieranymo and SOG, Green Berets and Wild Geese some time between San Hieronymo and LET. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 18:14, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
I looked a little further into this and the last LRRP unit didn't withdraw from Vietnam until August 1972 so the information in the database is correct. I will make the appropriate changes. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 13:33, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

Too Long

This page is way too long. Something needs to be done. I'm thinking we either split it into multiple pages, or we scale back how in-depth we go on each game. We don't need to go so in-depth considering there are links all through the page which lead to each game's full on in-depth summary. Thoughts? --Fantomas (talk) 16:58, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think scaling back the level of detail is probably the best option. But then there's nothing to stop people adding it in again in the future. It might be a good idea for us to create some guidelines for the wiki, to establish what is ideal for a character article. --Bluerock (talk) 17:11, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
We probably could shorten the sections relating to direct appearances, to cover general things (after all, the overall events are already covered in the game and the events articles anyways, and he's plot-central for MGS3-TPP, so we don't have to do an entire plot summary on them anyways). However, we should keep those things that are directly related to optional calls relating to things other than those directly related to the immediate events of the game. The Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land, and stuff in-between are perfect as-is, as they were established anyways. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:15, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking Weedle. With MGSV hype building up, more people will likely be coming here and we need to make pages accessible and to-the-point (in a manner of speaking). I'm going to take a look over the event pages at some point and see if they could be trimmed as well. --Fantomas (talk) 17:27, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
I agree, with sentences saying something "Big Boss used this to get there" can be cut out because it is irrelevant. If someone writes something down that is good enough to keep we can trim it down so that it does not drag on too much. Wiki Contributor 18:45, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Big Boss main profile image

Just curious but couldn't we get a better portrait shot of Big Boss from MGS4? I recognize that the original MGS1 drawing was somewhat dated, so I don't mind the change to his MGS4 appearance, but it's.... just a closeup of his face? I don't know what the criteria is for the main image for each character (something that I'd also like to know about) but the choice to a very huge closeup is one that baffles me and one that I'd be curious to hear about in regards to the reasoning behind the chosen image. DementedP (talk) 16:20, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Soulreaper and myself had some discussions about what images we should use for the infobox (here and here), as there is no defined policy at present for this wiki. We felt that renders from their latest appearance, either the upper body or head, would be fitting for a character profile image, rather than artwork that is not always representative, and would make every character page consistent. I've updated a couple pages to see how they look, but we're still in the process of mulling it over. Soulreaper has uploaded a lot of good images as possible candidates on his blog, so would be good to get more people's feedback on the issue. --Bluerock (talk) 18:03, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! That's all I wanted to know about. I'll be sure to check out the images on the blog myself. --DementedP (talk) 23:10, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain.

Hi. Right now Vito89 and anon 68 are trying to keep Phantom Pain on and removing Ground Zeroes, even though Kojima mentioned that, even though they are the same game, its not confirmed to be separate releases. We really need to find a way to keep GZ on here, especially considering that 1. We already had a consensus stating that GZ and TPP are to be kept separate until Kojima makes clear that they are the same release, not just the same game, but actually the same release, and 2. Kojima himself stated that he and the rest of KP are unsure how to treat GZ regarding its release alongside TPP. Heck, the fact that we should treat it like a TV show than as a film would imply separate releases, so we need to implement Ground Zeroes with TPP, since until further notice, even though they are technically the same game, they have to treat them as separate especially considering release. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:25, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Fine, it can stay. Although, sometimes new episodes of a show air twice in one night. -- 15:56, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

"Punished C**k"?

Im not sure If I missed something but when did big boss become "punished cock"? Zombo-tech (talk) 22:26, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Some edits recently have been rather childish and ridiculous. People have been bombing pages with stupid information, like calling Big Boss a "pimp". Most, if not all, have been rolled back. - Misterbunnsy (talk) 15:30, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Snake's Ribbons.


Can someone ID the ribbons on Snake's Uniform in the ending to Snake Eater in order? The article identified three of them (the Army Achievement ribbon, the Army Good Conduct ribbon, and the Distinguished Service Cross ribbon), but I can't exactly see where they are on his uniform, and the other seven are pretty much unidentifiable. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 04:25, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

While I can't answer your question, I felt I should point out that it's possible they don't really mean anything. It's not uncommon for movies and even more so for games to just throw on some colours that look right and call it a day. Something to keep in mind when researching this.--Soul reaper (talk) 09:39, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Naked Snakes date of birth

In MGS2 Liquid Ocelot says as he is about to enter Metal Gear Ray "Big Boss was in his late 50's when they created his copies" to Solid (on the Tanker). That woud mean Snakes bithdate would need to be somewhere in the late 1910's since Les Enfants Terribles was iniceated in the early 1970's. On this Site his date of birth is given as 1935 as Coldman in PW wich takes place in 1974 says "Died at the age of 39. Just as el Che." Now the Question is wich of those Birh dates is corect. I know there was a Discussion about wether or not the PW information should be includet in the articel but this point was never mentioned. Any Ideas? 19:22, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Kojima retconned Big Boss' age. The latter is correct. Also, that was Zadornov who revealed Big Boss' age. 19:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry you are right Zadornov not Coldman messed that up. But still any guesses why Liquid Ocelot said it. Didn't he knew better or did he intantionaly give out wrong information. Or is it just an mistake by the developers? 20:14, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
  With Ocelot it's hard to tell. It might be the developers, although I think it would be more of a retcon then a mistake. It could be however     Ocelot got his infomation lied to him or he could have lied for some unknow reason. My guess is like someone said above it was a      retcon. GrimmShadows (talk) 01:49, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

He has the eyes of his mentor.

Seriously though, In Metal Gear Acid (2 I think), you could upgrade The Boss and the name would change to, John Doe. Though I realise that this name is just making fun of their shady past, I highly doubt it will be cannonical to call him John. Why am I writing this? Because MG is spread through so many platforms and not everyone can endure the mind-destroying hours of MG-Acid or the stupidity and childness if MG-Acid 2, and you guys might not have noticed that he shares the same name as the boss.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Metal Gear Acid is not canon, so any information coming from it is irrelevant. Concerning his name I still stick with the version given in the officel guide for MGS 3 witch says that his name is John and that The Boss calls him Jack because she uses it as a nickname. 10:58, May 31, 2014 (UTC)

Origin of "The Patriots and Les Enfants Terribles" Information

What is the origin of the information under the "The Patriots and Les Enfants Terribles" section? I didn't see any sources for it, and I played all of the canon games. Was it mentioned elsewhere like in the database perhaps? Diamonddeath (talk) 06:46, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

A lot of it comes from the Big Mama's exposition in MGS4, and the post-end credits telephone conversation between Zero and Ocelot in Portable Ops. The section could be written a lot better though. --Bluerock (talk) 07:36, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Side Effects from nuclear testing?

The article says that Big Boss eventually started showing symptoms from the Bikini Atoll testing and references a radio conversation with Para-Medic as the source -- However, reading this conversation shows Snake saying the exact opposite -- That he has had no symptoms at all, and that numerous of the men he had served on the Marshall Islands with were already dead. 18:34, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well he does experience side effects in the form of being infertile, otherwise known as unable to make sperm, and thus unable to have offspring. Hence the Les Enfant Terribles project.UnitedPhysics (talk) 18:46, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Punished or Venom or both?

The name thing for Big Boss is the 80s is driving me nuts, partly from wanting the game to be out already. Is he called Punished Snake or Venom Snake? Is it both? My only idea is that he goes by the Punished codename after awakening and leading Diamond Dogs, then Venom codename when going deeper into the abyss in his war with the Patriots and forming Outer Heaven. But that's just me guessing.UnitedPhysics (talk) 22:33, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

Did Snake canonically get hurt when he was set on fire after defeating Metal Gear D?

Unlike Big Boss, he didn't wind up disfigured and in a coma. I'm not sure if his health going down is just a gameplay mechanic. At the very least, his clothes were on fire judging by Gray Fox's comment about "burning in Hell." The snarky Jim Logan does neglect one fact about being burned alive. It tends to disfigure people permanently. Wounded war vets and the character Skull Face prove that. -- 22:17, April 24, 2015 (UTC)

Who knows? Snake was hardly "burned alive" like Big Boss was, but he could have received minor burns, without permanent disfigurement. Life Gauge depletion alone is sketchy in regards to character health story-wise, especially since in-game rations can immediately replenish it.
Stating that Snake WAS hurt gives the impression that his injuries were of great significance prior to the fight with Big Boss, which is NOT conveyed in the game's storyline at all. Like anything, if it's not made clear, it shouldn't even be mentioned. However, you should give a satisfactory reason for any changes, rather than the opinion "not injured," which is probably what prompted the edit reversion. --Bluerock (talk) 20:29, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

Split Venom Snake from Big Boss?


As you guys may be aware of right now, a leaked Italian game guide strongly implies (though due to Konami and Kojima Productions' influence, never directly confirms nor denies) that Venom Snake, the Snake we play the game as, is basically an impostor and not the actual Big Boss (ie, Ocelot saying that Eli's father "isn't around" despite Venom Snake being nearby, alluding to a DNA test that confirmed that Eli and Venom Snake aren't related, and Huey suspecting Venom Snake is someone other than Big Boss when first meeting). I think we may need to split the information pertaining to Venom Snake to another article in case that turns out to be the case. Should we do so? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:35, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

I kind of highly doubt it unless you can find a link to the Italian game guide, because while interesting, needs to be verified before it's actually removed and Venom Snake is made a separate page.

Sure. Here's the link: (Who is Ishmael page)
I think it's covered in this forum, actually:
More specifically 570 onward.
And here's a video covering the gaming guide (originally on youtube, but Konami took it down):
That's all I have. And while I did vacation in Rome in 2009, I can't speak Italian. Oh, and a fair bit of warning, this DOES have spoilers. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:08, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
PS, there are plenty of other links to the game guide as well, and reveals some really interesting stuff: Namely, Skull Face IS the reason why Zero was a vegetable in MGS4 (to put it simply, he infected zero with some parasites that took away his cognitive functions, and Zero didn't bother with prolonging his life realizing he was doomed either way, so he visited Big Boss, had both Ocelot and Miller still serve Big Boss, and he even commissioned the creation of the AIs via Strangelove. Oh, and Huey ends up being the guy who kills Skull Face after Big Boss and Miller elect to just leave Skull Face to his fate after being crushed by debris thanks to Eli and Tretij Rebenok). You can read up more here, and it features links as well: Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:12, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, but the Gamespot forum looks like some stuff may have been removed, are there any like straight links to translations or something?--UnitedPhysics (talk) 00:17, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

I think the GameFAQs portion just hid the translations with spoilers. However, I will give you LunarRoar's translations in order.
"GZ and TPP's main antagonist, Skull Face was born in Hungary, where his parents worked in a secret weapons facility. During a bombing raid he was trampled over by terrified escapees, reporting serious injuries. Left in critical condition and without the possibility of a cure via conventional means, he survived thanks to (words out of frame) the parasites. However this therapy caused (words out of frame again) damage to his nervous system that (words) cause him pain.
"(words) '60s by Major Zero, SF was nominated (words) secret XOF tasked with overseeing/watching BB in order to ensure he'd complete his important missions (including Snake Eater in 64). (words) served Zero and BB (words) both but overall enjoying his proper place as commander of XOF. SF ordered the destruction of MB during GZ in 75 and tried to have BB assassinated via the bombs implanted in Paz. By torturing her, he'd discovered where Zero was and consequently infected him with a parasite obtained via Code Talker.
"Contaminated by multiple strains of the parasite in his vocal chords, SF searched for a cure without success for his infection. In reality, Code Talker hid the fact of a simple cure via some sort of therapy involving Wolbachia (according to wikipedia, wolbachia is some kind of bacteria that infects bugs:, and instead suggested he try an experimental method involving radiation.
"SF discovers that Zero, before being faced with his terminal status via his imminent decline, managed to create an AI to take his place in secret. With that he'd created a plan to free the world indefinitely from his ex commanders (the philosophers I guess?) by eliminating the English language and throwing the world into chaos with the creation of his nuclear weapon, Walker Gear.
"A step away from triumph, Eli appears on a helicopter and makes the Third Son go crazy, who'd just unleashed the fury of ST (the metal gear). SF is then crushed by rubble and his plan fails. Mortally wounded, he's killed by Huey moments after BB and Miller decided to leave him to his fate.",dZVZ38G#0
"(words cut off) collected in the building during torture of the woman and making her reveal Cipher's commander, an objective of grand sentimental value. SF manages to infect him with a parasite that provokes irreversible decline of the host's cognitive functions. His hatred was so profound that it wasn't enough to just kill Zero.
"Although the best specialists seek to slow the effects of the parasite, Zero is resigned to his fate. Before becoming a vegetable (as we see him in MGS4, by which time he's already in that state for thirty years) he sets off a chain of events.
"The most important order he gave to Dr. Strangelove, a researcher from DARPA (an agency which worked for Cipher, unbeknownst to her), to create an advanced AI ideal for controlling the flow of information in the digital world. The AI is revealed later in the series by the name Patriots. Zero knows he is condemned, but refuses to yield command of the new generation. Therefore he decides to entrust the AI to secretly take his place upholding his ideology as a relentless digital wall.
"The final actions of Zero all seem to revolve around Big Boss' image. He contacts Ocelot to protect their common friend while he's in a coma and even speaks with Miller to prepare for the eventual return of the legendary soldier. In 1977, Zero even visited BB to say goodbye, an event connected to one of the biggest mysteries in TPP, and in particular the identity of an enigmatic man.
"In the meantime, thanks to Cipher's unconventional structure and the know-how obtained through years of service in the XOF, SF manages to use the organization's resources to create a base of power that continues to expand. Like a parasite that feeds off its host, in a certain sense everything is ready for (cut off)"
"Perhaps the events of TPP really do take BB on the road that transforms him into a demon, which seems to happen in this episode. Perhaps it's necessary that Solid Snake defeat him, considering the events of the Patriots. Even so, it isn't a classic theatrical transformation, that is to say BB will gradually become the antagonist, devoured by events that leave only obsession behind.
He's determined more than ever to pursue his goals of a nation without government rule, a dream which will be realized in the '90s."
"(starts cut off) legendary soldier a succession of painful events. It's evident (words cut off) in which he imagines that Paz is still alive, proves that (cut off) still has emotions... Even if he tells Solid Snake to have them buried (cut off) like The Boss. His relationship with Quiet, based out of respect (cut off) and which grows in Mother Base, doesn't possess (cut off) traditional romance. However this doesn't belittle the importance of their bond or the sacrifice Quiet makes for Big Boss.
Interestingly (I think, kinda hard to tell), Ocelot has sworn that BB isn't his father, Eli (cut off) convinced that he was created in the Les Enfants Terribles project (rest is cut off)"
"The Third Son
"Following in Skull Face's tracks in Afghanistan
comes to know that his enemy
incredibly advanced biotechnology
(and so even to him) to utilize rare
of high engineering(too much is cut off here...). In any case
deep symbiotic relationship
elite with extraordinary abilities finish
his extraordinary capacity
reported injuries in Cyprus "
"(too blurry) is very lonely with the position given to him in the soviet army. Tretij Rebenok, or the Third Son, (blurry) as a boy his psychokinetic powers and became a (blurry) free of emotion and personality. (blurry) first appearance (blurry) when already (blurry) and appears that his powers (blurry) hatred (blurry)
"(blurry) incident (blurry) sole survivor in a series of (blurry) lead The Third Son to get closer to Volgin enough that his hatred (blurry) BB. A terrible (blurry) Volgin is formed carbonized(??) (in life he was obsessed with [blurry] until [blurry] the man who destroyed his dream). Third Son realizes his desire for revenge and creates the man on fire.
"(blurry) knows that SF discovers where to find Big Boss after nine years of searching, moreover, he begins to interest himself (blurry) the bizarre boy and the ex soviet commander which he controls through Cipher's connections. This brings (blurry) very important, SF's resentment (blurry) draw the powers of the Third Child (rest is to blurry to read)"
Liquid is one of the three clones of Big Boss created at Zero's request, the Les Enfants Terribles project. After discovering the truth about his birth, Liquid develops a pathological obsession to surpass his father as well as another irrational obsession with Solid Snake, who he wrongfully believed was a genetically superior clone of their common parent.
Manipulated and pushed on this (blurry word) road in particular by Solidus and Ocelot, he was killed in the incident at Shadow Moses by Solid Snake by the end of the episode.
(blurry words) MGSV:TPP (blurrier words)
"You face Quiet in a duel between sharpshooters in the mission 11 and anew in mission 40 (extreme difficulty), which makes it much more challenging. You will find the recommended strategies to address the two battles on page 92 and 182, respectively. In this section, we'll reveal statistics and additional details that are not visible in the game.
"Quiet has hearing that is 10 times more sensitive than normal soldiers. She will hear you shoot from any distance unless there's a sandstorm. If you want to sneak up on her, you will have to move slowly and carefully.
Quiet sees night as if it were day.
"You face Eli in the mission 23 and again in a brief clash in optional mission 113. You will find complete analysis of the battle on page 142. In this section, we'll reveal statistics and additional details that are not visible in the game."
"When you wear the Cyborg Ninja or Raiden skin, you can run into enemies to knock them over. They'll get back up immediately, but you'll have enough time to shoot them or use CQC." (Part 1)
"You'll face Quiet in a sniper duel in mission 11 and again in mission 40 on extreme difficulty (which presents more of a challenge). You can find recommended battle strategies on pages 92 and 182. This section will limit itself to statistics and additional details that aren't visible in-game.
"Quiet's hearing capabilities are ten times more sensitive in comparison to that of a normal soldier's. She'll hear you running from any distance unless you're in a sandstorm. If you want to take her by surprise you'll have to move slowly and attentively.
"Quiet can see just as well regardless of whether it's night or day.
"(text blocked)Something about a laser, if you get hit you die instantly. Something about 20 seconds and being cautious.
"Man on Fire
"If we exclude the prologue, the only real encounter with the Man on Fire is in mission 20. Go to page 134 for a complete strategy.

"You'll face Eli in mission 23 and re-encounter him briefly in optional mission 113. You'll find complete battle analysis on page 142. This section will limit itself to statistics and additional details that aren't visible in-game.
"After the brief encounter in mission 12, you'll face ST twice: Once in mission 31 and again in mission 50 on extreme difficulty. You'll find combat strategies on pages 164 and 200, but these tables offer more detail, statistics, and advice.

"Skulls (Fog Version)
"You'll encounter Fog Skulls twice: once in mission 01 and again in mission 06. During both encounters, you can decide to not face them at all.
"You can destroy parts of their bodies to inflict multipliers that'll reduce their health or stamina bars faster. A successful "elimination" of the head will provide a x2.25 multiplier on all successive hits.
"When you destroy a second body part, the first heals immediately. Therefore it pays to be precise and continually hit the same spot.
"All skulls have a slow-acting health regen, therefore it benefits you to eliminate them one at a time and focus on a single target until he's neutralized.
"Every Skull (blocked) positively fultoned (possible only [blocked]) you're rewarded with proper (blocked) spreads fog (blocked) parasitic.
"You can use (blocked) when facing skulls, enough seconds, maximum grade obtainable, easter egg, something something, too blocked to know." (Part 2)
"Skulls (Armored Version)
"You'll face this variation of Skulls twice on normal missions (16 and 29) and twice on extreme (37 and 42): for strategic advice go to pages 116, 160, 176, and 188. All of the aspects mentioned earlier about the Fog Skulls apply to the Armored Skulls as well. Every Skull of this type that you Fulton will reward you with the proper parasite which are necessary for the creation of items that strengthen the armored enhancements of your parasite.
"Skulls (Camo version)
"You face these Skulls twice: once in mission 28 and again in mission 48. You'll find strategic and combat advice on pages 156 and 196. Every Skull of this type that you Fulton will reward you with a parasite necessary for the creation of an item that renders you invisible for 30 seconds when used.
"Body parts are indestructible and do not regain health.
"Headshots deal x2 damage and are the best method for eliminating this enemy.
"Their vision isn't impaired by night (like Quiet). Their hearing is ten times better than an ordinary solider's. It's quite possible that they'll be able to identify you by sound alone.
"If you listen carefully, you'll be able to hear them breath while they aim with their sniper rifles. It's a recognizable sound, even if it isn't as obvious as Quiet's humming.
"The first bipedal tank was developed by a Russian scientist, subsequently outclassed by Sokolov's Shagohod found during Operation Snake Eater in 1964. In the years that followed, Huey created diverse Metal Gear models inspired by Soviet designs, from Peace Walker to ZEKE: all robots are able to walk, many of which had nuclear capabilities. Their purpose was to create a deterrent powerful enough to stop superpowers from annihilating one another during the Cold War.
"Several years later, Otacon, Huey's son, created an advanced model also gifted with the similar nuclear capabilities of its predecessors: Metal Gear REX. This was subsequently outclassed by the amphibious Metal Gear RAY. The pinnacle of Metal Gear is reached with the creation of Arsenal Gear, a reinterpretation of the original project which essentially transformed it into a mobile fortress. Liquid Ocelot's Outer Haven is a modified version which he'd stolen from the Patriots."
"Note: At the request of Konami and Kojima Productions we aren't allowed to reveal Ishmael's true identity. The final piece of MGSV's story is revealed in a secret mission available after the main story: a reward for passionate gamers. Here we examine the evidence acquired beforehand.
"So essentially what they're saying is "this is everything the game throws at you before you play this mission we aren't allowed to talk about." I can keep translating from there but I'm sure we've all seen this stuff already: maybe he's a hallucination, maybe he's the medic, maybe, maybe, maybe.
"Personally because they're playing the medic angle so hard, I'm led to believe that isn't the case. I'm throwing my hat in the Solidus ring specifically because (and refer to my earlier translation on Zero and Skull Face) Zero visiting BB in 1977 plays an integral role in deducing the identity of a "mysterious figure." Solidus was always the back-up plan for Big Boss, a physically identical recreation of the man who was made to age at an accelerated rate and eventually become president. Again, this is just my speculation."
Nothing in those translations from LunarWolf, but Apple_B did point to a reddit statement that translated the Who is Ishmael bit where they alluded to those scenes. I'll get you the link to that as soon as possible. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:41, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
PS, although not really the Reddit link, LunarWolf just got through translating the entire section:
"When BB awakens after his long coma, he’s helped by (or rather saved by) a mysterious man named Ishmael, the patient whose bed is adjacent to his. His entire face is bandaged anf it isn’t possible to say who he is exactly, but his voice is strangely familiar. When BB asks who he is, Ishmael enigmatically responds with, “Who am I? You’re talking to yourself. I’ve watched over you for nine years… call me Ishmael.”
"Towards the end of the prologue they escape from the hospital in Cyprus, the ambulance that they’re travelling in crashes: BB crawls out and is saved soon enough by Ocelot, but Ishmael has disappeared.
"The most obvious explanation is that Ishmael doesn’t exist, that he was birthed from BB’s imagination, a makeshift creation by his mind to help cope with awakening from the coma and escape the chaos in the hospital. In a certain sense, he could even be a manifestation of his survival instinct. This idea is supported is supported by multiple elements: the way in which he disappears like a phantom, the fact that the nurse doesn’t seem to notice his presence near BB in the initial scenes, the affirmation by Ishmael that BB is talking to himself when asked who he is, and the fact that their voices are apparently identical. All of these factors seem to suggest that the mystery man is a hallucination used by Big Boss in order to save himself from a desperate situation.
"If only it were so simple! A few events from the prologue help confirm that Ishmael is in fact a real person. When Quiet arrives at the hospital to assassinate BB, she briefly speaks on the radio and confirms his existence, “Not yet. The patient in the bed next to me has seen my face.” If she’s able to see him, it means that he’s really someone… Which seems to suggest failure of the assassination attempt. Secondly, during the ambulance escape, BB is clearly sitting in the passenger’s seat to the left and Ishmael is the driver on the right… Which makes perfect sense since cars in Cyprus have the wheel in the right side just like in Great Britain. The hallucination angle may push the idea that he exists to console and motivate, but surely it wouldn’t be able to drive in a high speed chase. It’s impossible for an imaginary friend to drive. Finally, when BB asks Ocelot who the man was that helped him escape, he purposefully ignores the question… That should ring alarm bells to any gamer that knows his character at his core.
"Now, if Ishmael really does exist, the question then is: who is he? Even if it is impossible to uncover the mystery until the secret mission unlocked by satisfying precise conditions at the end of MGSV, in the final scenes of Ground Zeroes and in the 2013 trailer for Phantom Pain there are enormous indicators.
"The first is that the medic that removes the first bomb implanted in Paz on the helicopter has a voice quite similar (but not necessarily identical) to BB. He only says a few words, but the fact is undeniable: the tone is almost identical.
"The second indicator is that the medic deliberately sacrifices himself to protect BB from the explosion of the second bomb implanted in Paz’s body. This behavior isn’t necessarily surprising, it merely shows his loyalty." Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:47, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

"Following that, he participates in an operation of vital importance. Following his gesture

"" it’s expected that it is the medic (and not BB) who had been gravely injured by shrapnel. The protagonist of TPP, Ahab, has an enormous and unmistakable metal fragment jutting from his head. It’s a strange object that can’t possibly be removed without causing irreversible brain damage. Which brings us to…

"The third and decisive indicator revealed after BB’s helicopter crash, in a medical structure nearby. Miller is critically wounded but conscious, meanwhile his commander (still wearing the uniform from Operation Ground Zeroes) is in the throes of death. The colossal revelation lasts only a few seconds, and is easily missed by a majority of the fanbase. You’ll quickly notice BB’s face on the right side is not wounded with shrapnel reminiscent of a horn.
"The final indicator is provided by Miller in the same scene, a few seconds after seeing BB’s face. In fact he asks the medics, “how is he?” and the doctors respond that BB is stable but in a coma. At that point, Miller follows with, “and him?” clearly referring to a third patient who isn’t in frame. It’s not impossible for this to be the medic on board the helicopter that sacrificed himself to protect BB. His body ought to be covered in shrapnel due to his positioning during the explosion and the following impact… Right?
"For longtime fans, the fact that Ishmael’s bedside is decorated with a certain white flower (the Star of Bethlehem, so dear to The Boss) constitutes irrefutable proof. The vase placed by Ahab’s bedside by the nurse is a potential indicator.
"Paying attention it’s possible to note multiple others in PP’s story. For example, when Emmerich first encounters BB in the hanger where he’s saved, he observes him closely and is dubious of his identity. As if something is missing. A similar thing occurs when Ahab recovers Volgin’s corpse in chapter 2: for a moment the flames subside because it recognizes someone. Even more decisive indicators are made when Ahab encounters Paz’s “phantom” for the first time in Mother Base, there are clearly two versions of BB in the helicopter during the hallucination.

"Another example is given in the scene where Ocelot interrogates Eli (who we can securely presume is Liquid Snake, one of the three clones from the LET project) after helping child soldiers escape from Mother Base. When the boy asks where BB is, Ocelot responds, “I’ve already told you, your father isn’t here,” even though Ahab is observing through a one way mirror. Even more revealing is the DNA test performed on Ahab which bears a negative result. It’s unthinkable that such an exam doesn’t manage to connect Eli to BB since he’s his clone. Another clue to Ahab’s true identity." Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:54, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
Think that is too much spoiler for this page.--UnitedPhysics (talk) 04:24, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
I did warn you that there was going to be spoilers, right? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 10:21, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
I think we should wait until we get some actual confirmation as to whether the two are different people or not (i.e. visual evidence from the actual game). If it does indeed turn out that Venom Snake is the Medic then I think the best course of action would be to rename the Unidentified Militaires Sans Frontières medic (1975) page to "Venom Snake" with the info from Ground Zeroes in the biography section. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 13:02, August 23, 2015 (UTC)


So is the leak really a fake?

If it is then AWESOME, but I was just wondering if anyone had any evidence which confirmed that the guide translations were wrong. I'm guessing some of the stuff was true but if the whole Venom Snake thing was false I'd appreciate it if someone could post a link or something. So hyped for this game!!!--TheSOLIDAssassin (talk) 09:57, August 27, 2015 (UTC)


God damn, thank you for locking the page. 

Confirmed (MAJOR SPOILERS) Someone who got a copy early streamed the game and got to the Truth: The Man Who Sold the World mission. It pretty much confirms the theory.  appledoze (talk) 21:11, August 31, 2015 (UTC)

Venom Snake and Black Arts Viper

I haven't thought about the non-canon Metal Gear: Ghost Babel in a really long time, but I was thinking about it today, and it occured to me that there are a ridiculous number of parallels between Ghost Babel's villain, Black Arts Viper, and Big Boss/Venom Snake as he appears in The Phantom Pain. Might be worth mentioning in the trivia.

In Ghost Babel Viper was the leader of Black Chamber, a "shadow FOXHOUND" unit that was created to perform wetwork that FOXHOUND could no longer perform after their existence became public as a result of the Outer Heaven Uprising. After Black Chamber was sent on a mission to recover a prototype Metal Gear unit developed in South America, they were ambushed and massacred by FOXHOUND, under orders from Roy Campbell, who was manipulated with false information fed to him by "Anonymous" (actually the director of the CIA and the man who helped Big Boss fund Outer Heaven.)

Viper survived the massacre, but lost his left arm, which was replaced with an advanced prosthetic outfitted with various special gadgets. It's also mentioned that he chose the codename Viper as a challenge to Snake, as Vipers are "venomous snakes." Following the incident he and the few surviving members of Black Chamber became terrorists and vowed to take revenge on FOXHOUND and "Anonymous." FF-Suzaku (talk) 22:13, August 31, 2015 (UTC)

Now that the game is released, is anyone planning on creating a Venom Snake article?Dibol (talk) 07:35, September 1, 2015 (UTC)

Put Venom's Exploit under Venom's page?

Now that it's D+2 of MGSV launch, with tons of spoilers abound, shall we put Venom's exploit under Venom's page instead of under this article? Based on the ending, it sounds like Zanzibar Land is a parallel development, not the secondar iteration, of Outer Heaven.Jestersage (talk) 01:42, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rename to Naked Snake

I personally don't think it makes much sense for this page to be titled "Big Boss" anymore. Big Boss is a title, one which Naked Snake did not always possess, but more importantly, is shared with Venom Snake. Both Naked Snake and Venom Snake are technically Big Boss, and the game makes it clear the Venom Snake shares his "legacy". Is there a chance this page could be moved?--LiquidOcelotMGS4 Technobliterator TC 17:03, September 27, 2015 (UTC)

While you are right that both the true Big Boss and the Phantom and they both share the legend, I think that the name of the true Big Boss should remain named as Big Boss. Reason is that when we are first introduced to him he is called Big Boss. Not only is it his main title but it is the name we know him by when we first see him in the series. How I think this wiki works is that the name of the character's name is the one when they are introduced, like Para Medic, Donald Anderson and Revolver Ocelot main pages are named given by the names they go by when we are introduced to them.

Cybernetic Replacements?

Given the fact that we know that the Big Boss that Solid Snake fought at Outer Heaven was actually Venom Snake, does that retcon the fact that Dr. Madnar replaced parts of Big Boss's body with cybernetic parts to compensate for injuries sustained at Outer Heaven?--Strawhatmsd (talk) 00:36, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

When you consider that George Kasler stated the information was a rumor when he relayed it to Solid Snake, it doesn't make much of a difference. --Bluerock (talk) 00:53, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Move PO to behind the scenes

It isn't a main game. Yeah I know it's canon, even though most of it was retconned, but it doesn't really have a proper spot in Big Boss's main biography. I say either make it more vague to account for details that have obviously been retconned (like RAXA and ICBMG) and Ocelot getting the legacy. 19:25, October 13, 2015 (UTC)

"Yeah I know it's canon"
All you need to know. Plenty of details in Solid Snake's bio have since been retconned (many would argue that Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 have been entirely retconned) but that's the chronology of the series - it simply has retcons. Paranoid Donkey (talk) 19:32, October 13, 2015 (UTC)
Don't forget that the game is mentioned a lot in the Metal Gear Solid 4 Database. Ghost Babel and the Acid games aren't. -- 19:49, October 13, 2015 (UTC)
 :The database is hardly worth seeking for canon info. Even with the main games it screws up a good deal of information. It's a simple fact that PO is not important to the story, and that should be what matters. Sure, give it more recognition than Acid or something, but it doesnt' really belong in the main section. 20:59, October 14, 2015 (UTC)
By that logic, we should just move the MSX2 games to the behind the scenes section since most of the elements of those games have been significantly retconned. MPO stays in the main section. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:26, October 14, 2015 (UTC)
Oh for the love of god, will people just leave Portable Ops alone already? Jeeze, just last month or something the page had to be locked because of an edit war with some guy who kept insisting he had proof it was no longer canon when he really didn't and now this crap? Portable Ops is a canon title until stated otherwise, therefor like all canon titles, the info of characters that appear there belongs in the main section of the pages. Until it is proven to be without a doubt 100% non-canon, it's going to stay in the main sections. Doesn't matter if the story isn't that important. If you got a problem with it then you should either deal with it or go make your own wiki the way you want it made.Kornflakes89 (talk)
Amen! -- 15:47, December 20, 2015 (UTC)

body double

did he just step into the cloning machine???

New infobox?

Personally I prefer the old infobox over this new one.Apart from on the Big Boss page's images in the infobox being cut off, there was no reason to change and there wouldnt have been any need for a new infobox for that. I added the < br /> as otherwise it looks messy. For some reason, on Big Boss's infobox the age doesnt appear.

This isnt going to be the infobox for all articles from now on is it? Because like I said I prefer the old ones over these new ones.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

The infobox is changing to the new style so that it displays correctly across mobile devices, which the vast majority of Wikia visitors use. Personally, I think it looks significantly more tidier, so I'm sure what you mean by "messy." The "age" parameter should now be visible. There may additional tweaking required, so useful feedback would be appreciated, rather than just disliking it because it's different. Also, remember to sign comments with four tildes (~); there's a notification to do so everytime you edit a talk page. --Bluerock (talk) 10:36, November 9, 2015 (UTC)
Bluerock sorry I didnt mean any disrespect and sorry if I caused offence. Thinking about I think it is okay. Is this going to be for all artilces. What I meant by messy and the only issueI have is how the also known as and the afiliations close togetherwith commons instead of being in a list with the < br />. Its still like that for main appearances and family. Not me but should the dates be changed to games as it could be confusing because of the order. (~)(~)~(~) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
The infobox will be rolled out across all articles eventually, but I wanted to pilot it on a few articles first to iron out any bugs. I held off doing it until now as I was waiting for the new style infobox to implement the tab function for images, which it didn't do in its early version.
As for using year numbers in the tabs, I thought this may look tidier and help people discern his age in the various images, rather than the games they originate from, but this could be changed back in future if other people have similar misgivings.
I removed the line breaks (<br />) from the aliases and affiliations, as I felt the infobox was extremely long as it was and there was a lot of horizontal space being wasted. I maintained the line breaks for the more complex list items, like games and family members, which are usually very long and include terms in small parentheses, which is not as great an issue for the aliases and affiliations. However, I take your point. After reviewing them on mobile, I may also use bullets instead of line breaks, to differentiate the list items more easily for narrower screens.
Oh, and I meant four tildes in sequence (~~~~), sorry. --Bluerock (talk) 13:29, November 9, 2015 (UTC)
No porblem. Im in favour for the new infobxes but do you think bullet points are needed? I mean before the bullet points werent needed and neither was the , it was still pretty easy to tell what was what. Can we go back
without bullet points and see what happens? With the , it was a little hard to differentiate the list items. With or without bullet points there is little to no difference.( 16:10, November 9, 2015 (UTC)) 
I've reverted back to bullets, because when the list items exceed one line, they look untidy, and since their presence makes no difference from your perspective, then you should have no objection to them being used. They also allow the use of sub-bullets where applicable, such as groups existing under larger groups, e.g. FOXHOUND under U.S. Army.
Just a tip, if you want to discuss Wikia coding, such as the line breaks (br /), you need to enclose it with <nowiki></nowiki> tags, or the code will be executed, and thus invisible, as in normal editing. --Bluerock (talk) 18:09, November 9, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I suppose you are right. Bullet points or no bullet points it makes no differenceas the infomation is still there the same way it was before and its better then the use of , which made it look disorganised, with bullet points its better and it could be better then the way the original infobox did it. You agree Bluerock buddy?( 18:35, November 9, 2015 (UTC))
I still have reservations about how long these infoboxes can get, but bullets work for now, yes. I left the occupations with commas for now, since they're mainly just one word terms and look tidy enough. --Bluerock (talk)
Im sure we wont have to worry about that as most infoboxes on this wiki are not too big. Infoboxes for most characters such as Venom Snake, Liquid, Soldius,Otacon and ectetera are not too big. I think in my humble opinion that bullet points work really well for" also known as", "affiliations", "notable family members" and "main appearances". I agree about "occupations" being with commas, as it looks tidy and it is not as important as "also know as", "affiliations", "notable family members" and "main appearances". Do you agree Bluerock? ( 21:14, November 9, 2015 (UTC))
Fair enough. --Bluerock (talk) 21:47, November 10, 2015 (UTC)
Im glad you agree. I was wondering is it the same as the box for the rank profile? Because it looks a lot like the new character infobox. I was also wondering if it is possible to have a picture of Big Boss in his Ishmael persona for the infobox in 1984.( 22:07, November 10, 2015 (UTC))
If you're talking about the mother base staff profiles, yes, they are the same style. As for Ishmael, I'm trying to restrict the amount of images to a reasonable number, as I think too many can make it needlessly complex. Once per game seems to be enough, at least for Big Boss, who stars in 6 games. I'll think more on it anyway. --Bluerock (talk) 22:52, November 10, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I see what you mean as with the original box the images from the other games were cut off and if it were to cut images off then it would be better to not have Ishmael there and risk that and Big Boss's infobox's is arguably the biggest character infobox on this wiki. I guess it's enough to reveal his true face in 1984. Nice work on Solidus page by the way.( 22:58, November 10, 2015 (UTC)) 
A small problem Ive noticed is that the catergory picture for Big Boss shows his picture for his testing at Bikini Atoll instead of his picture from 1984. I thought you should know.( 23:28, November 10, 2015 (UTC))
You're right. I've let the Wikia team know, and they are now working on a fix. --Bluerock (talk) 21:03, November 11, 2015 (UTC)
The same has happened to the Solidus page as well. It can be assumed this will happen when the new infoboxes are implemented through out the wiki. While it isnt a problem, it is something that would have to be resolved after each new infobox is made. ( 21:14, November 11, 2015 (UTC))

Why is there a major spoiler for a recently released game at the absolute very top of the article?! Can we please figure out a different way to do this!! Maybe "This is about the Legendary Soldier; you may be looking for his mentor, The Boss, or his protoge." without reference to who that is. You can't put the game's final spoiler as the first line in the article! 15:51, December 8, 2015 (UTC)


Considering Solid, Liquid and Solidus are products of the LST project and thus technic ally are clones of BB (more humanly they're referred as sons), shouldn't be more correct to label them in the templace as "clone" or "son/clone" or whatever?

Also, I was wondering if The Boss in the same section could be referred differently. In MGS3 Snake explicitly says "she's been like a mother to me", and The Boss herself kinda acts like a protective mother towards him. "Mother figure" is used at the moment, which technically is not wrong. I was just wondering if could sound better other terms like "spiritual mother". In this case the meaning wouldn't change and they're both correct, just wondering if this one'd "suit" better. --The 2nd travel of the Titanic (talk) 11:00, December 16, 2015 (UTC)

La photo avec <<Big Boss awaits deployment to an American black site in Cuba>> est déplacée: on reconnaît le bras mécanique et la corne de Venom Snake, alors que cette scène apparaît dans MGS5.

Il y a une photo de BB dans le briefing de MGS. Il faudrait peu-être l'ajouter?

There should be a Ghost Babel article for Big Boss

Since the guy Solid Snake blew to bits in the canonical story was Venom Snake, not Big Boss. Besides, all characters in Ghost Babel are alternate universe characters.TheFury928 (talk) 23:16, May 25, 2017 (UTC)

"sniping in urban and marine environments"

As I recall, isn't that line determined by the "I like MGS" selection at the start? He says urban and marine if you select MGS2 and something else if you say you like MGS1, IIRC. Evil Tim (talk) 07:21, August 13, 2018 (UTC)

It's possible, so would it be interesting to have some confirmation. If so, it would be similar to Solid Snake's comment in MGS1, on undertaking VR training prior to commencing the Shadow Moses mission, if the player chose to do so before starting the main game. --Bluerock (talk) 20:39, August 13, 2018 (UTC)
Only thing I know for certain is that the game script for MGS3 only mentioned the urban and marine environments without even indicating that was determined by the player's answer for I like MGS, while it did make sure to specify instances where a particular response is given depending on what the player did beforehand (ie, Snake's report to Zero about what happened to the KGB soldiers guarding Sokolov, or Volgin's remark on Snake's body). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:28, August 14, 2018 (UTC)

Ishmael sporting a glass eye?

My edit about Big Boss using a glass eye when mascaraing as Ishmael was reverted. While there is no mentioning of this being the case in the game, but is there another explanation to how Big Boss actually pulls off the illusion of having two undamaged eyes when in the Ishmael disguise?--Utritum (talk) 20:19, November 13, 2018 (UTC)

There's probable several ways Big Boss could pull off the disguise, but I think defining it as a glass eye when it is not clear would be too much of an assumption. Interestingly, Hideo Kojima has previously worn an Ishmael mask, complete with eyes. --Bluerock (talk) 23:08, November 16, 2018 (UTC)
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