Talk:Kazuhira Miller

Why Miller betrays Big Boss?
If Miller was so leal to Big Boss, why he assisted Solid Snake and refered to Big Boss as a monster!? Bogota X


 * Who really knows? We really don't have much to suggest a reason. I know I've seen people cite the secret phone call that one gets after beating every single mission as the reason, but the problem is that the phone call was heavily implied to take place before Paz hijacked ZEKE, not after, plus several things that simply would not have made any sense if we use that call as a reason (IE, why would he still willingly serve Cipher/The Patriots if they nearly ruined MSF by almost framing them through Paz using ZEKE to launch an attack on the East Coast of the United States to make it seem as though MSF was an extremist cult, when he made it somewhat clear that the only reason he relied on them in the first place was to expand MSF?). If there is going to be a new Big Boss game (which going by what is mentioned in interviews and in TGS2009, there probably will be a new Big Boss game), I think that needs to be elaborated on, or if they remake it, remove that line. Weedle McHairybug 12:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, it hasn't been revealed or explained in the games' canon (yet). --Bluerock 12:38, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Another Big Boss game? I thought the only other game that is under development is Rising?
 * It is, but there was at least one interview indicated that they planned on making a sequel to Peace Walker, and Hideo Kojima also mentioned at the TGS2009 showing of Peace Walker that, although Solid Snake's story may have been finished, Big Boss's story was far from over, which indicated that he planned on doing some more games involving Big Boss. Weedle McHairybug 13:06, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Master Miller Image
The KazMiller image from 1974 is the best profile image in my belief the other was looks weird and some could say it looks like Raiden in a gay meaning. Kennedy 3421 11:50, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421


 * What image are you talking about? And why would you thinking it looks "gay" be a valid reason for anything? --Bluerock 20:13, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mgspw-kazuhira-miller.jpg
 * What I meant in this image he looks like a woman like with Raiden it, the Image from the MGS1 manual or the Other Kaz image from Peace Walker were more clearer than this one. Kennedy 3421 00:05, August 11, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421
 * I agree that the image from MGS1 is a more recognizable one to have in his profile, but really? That's your reason? Good Lord, HA HA HA! --Bluerock 07:09, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the concept image from Peace Walker it is not horrible its just it looks kinda strange. Kennedy 3421 08:53, August 12, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421
 * Well the concept image from Peace Walker it is not horrible its just it looks kinda strange. Kennedy 3421 08:53, August 12, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

Miller's Death
Where did the details of Miller's death come from? His death wasn't explained in MGS so where was it? Andre666 12:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * MGS novel. -- Ocelot youth 13:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So Miller was killed by nerve gas...THE most effective way of killing somebody...interesting...in a...tragic sorta way. Here, all along I thought someone simply capped him, or if it WAS Liquid, he got the drop on him in a stranglehold and snapped his kneck.
 * Thanks OY, I was just wondering if someone had made it up, you know what some people are like! Interesting indeed. Andre666 08:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Say, should anyone try and add in the fact that Master Miller may be appearing in Peace Walker due to new information?, you know, like here: http://www.metalgearsolid.org/Metal-Gear-Solid-Peace-Walker/48483-TGS-trailer-details-+-Master-Miller.html#48483
 * No evidence that it's actually him yet, so no. We'll wait until we actually know for sure. --Fantomas 21:46, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Miller's bisexual, huh?
I just saw that you can go on a date with Miller. Hell, you can get him in the Love Box! http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=UwVPfF8Ir1g
 * A lot of Metal Gear character's are bisexual! --Fantomas 08:48, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The date is non-canon. Just like Paz's date.--70.127.203.117 12:20, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree, it's not really canon, as it's not suggested anywhere else, doesn't really have any impact on the game other than the fact that you can get the Patriot design specs from Miller (Normally the design specs would indicate that it has some canonicity, but MGS4 implied that the Patriot-like weapon Big Boss used in Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land was indeed the same one The Boss used, so that one is an exception. Besides, why would Kaz hold onto specs for the Patriot, and NOT have R&D develop it unless Big Boss manages to remove it from him? Same goes for Paz.), unlock his uniform for use (Which, again, he would use that uniform if he has to use the mission anyways, rendering the entire point moot), and that it is obviously one of the missions required to unlock the Phone Tape (and that's only due to the fact that you need to complete all Extra Ops/Main Ops missions to even unlock it). I may not have wanted the MH Missions to be canon, but the fact that they were heavily referenced in Briefing Tapes and even included a graphic novel cutscene indicates that it is indeed canon. The Vehicle capturing missions or at the very least the Hind D missions are implied to be canon due to the fact that Hind Ds appeared in the chapter 5 ending. However, the Paz and Kaz missions have no chance at being canon since they aren't referred to at all, and thus not canon. Weedle McHairybug 12:31, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL, the Monster Hunter missions are obviously not canon. Just because they have a graphic novel cutscene and a bunch of briefing files doesn't mean it's canon. It's just as similar as Campbell telling Snake to press the action button to drop down, Psycho Mantis telling Snake to put the controller on the floor and Ocelot telling Snake to press the circle button to resist torture. As for Paz, she makes it clear in her diary that she has no interest in Big Boss.--70.127.203.117 21:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Snake Vs. Monkey is a better example. --Fantomas 21:48, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point. Although wouldn't it have been simpler to just place the Monster Hunter related missions in an entirely separate mode (meaning having absolutely no connection to the story file whatsoever, similar to Snake Vs. Monkey)? Weedle McHairybug 21:50, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The date is canon because everybody is gay for Big Boss. --69.225.116.149 05:36, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * This coming from the guy who thinks that Miller didn't think that Big Boss was a sociopath.--70.127.204.180 12:41, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Your joke radar must be off. I suggest tuning it or, better yet, go outside. But whatever, I have no intentions of dragging out your pointless flame war so I'm just going to let you yell at the clouds. --69.225.116.149 03:53, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Kazuhira Miller name change
reading the article it seems that it has been assumed that Kazuhira Miller changed his name to McDonell Benedict Miller. Unless there is good info that these are the same character I think they should be separated. Otherwise we're just making stuff up. --Drawde83 04:57, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Better to remove the assumption then, since we don't know the origin (in-universe) of the name "MacDonell Benedict," though this is his name given in the older games. He was the same character, as Peace Walker's timeline lists his death in 2005 (MGS). I agree that we should rename the article "Kazuhira Miller," seeing as this is his birth name and father's surname. --Bluerock 06:19, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you tell me where it lists his death? where is it said that that is his birth name. The simplest explanation is that there are two seperate people who have the same surname and happened to die in the same year and when you think about it that scenario isn't that unlikely. If we renamed this we would have to go through all the MGS related articles and change the links. I'm sorry but there is not enough evidence to support that and I'm not going to correct everyone who changes it back to the name that is used in the game. --Drawde83 10:02, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * After you fight and defeat Paz/ZEKE and watch the cutscene that follows, there should be a timeline that occurs. The part about his being killed by an unknown assailant in 2005 is right at the end of that timeline. Weedle McHairybug 11:43, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * His mother named him Kazuhira at birth. Why he later adopted the English first name of "MacDonell" hasn't been revealed; maybe it's been retconned away, but there's no evidence of that yet. And changing the links isn't that big a deal, since a redirect will be set up for "Master Miller" and any old links that we see as we continue with our editing can be changed as we go along. --Bluerock 11:59, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if they retconned it away, they'd need to remake Metal Gear Solid again in order to incorporate the change. Weedle McHairybug 14:06, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't see whats wrong with treating it as too different characters. That way all the peace walker pages can link to kaz and all the MGS pages can link to master miller. simple. In MGS1 it's not even miller anyway, we should treat this like the liquid ocelot page. --Drawde83 19:58, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's because Liquid Ocelot was a different character due to the presence of the Liquid doppelganger's personality. Miller is the same person, and his history was fleshed out more (and in some cases retconned). It is not Miller in MGS1, but Liquid based his appearance on the real Miller. His prior history was established back in the MSX games anyway. I know you want to split all the character pages based on game appearance, but I don't think the Wiki's community has decided on whether to pursue this yet, due to the greater confusion it will likely create. --Bluerock 20:07, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's pretty clear that any changes I make to this page would not be welcomed, So I won't make any. I'm sorry if you think I'm on an agenda to split up all the character pages. If you go back and read it, I never made that suggestion. At most I've asked which characters it would be suitable for. Instead I will wait and let you do what you want. While you are at it I would suggest you also split the Johnny Sasaki page (they are two characters). Please let me know what steps the community is taking to consider this?? --Drawde83 21:39, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * There are actually some aspects of your idea that I like. I can see how reading a detailed page on Solid Snake might overwhelm new readers, and I think it would be beneficial that people new to the series could see how characters were originally presented in older games, before the multitude of retcons that inevitably made their backstories extremely convoluted, and not easily accessible. However, I'm not sure how a big shift in the Wiki's organization would be dealt with, if carried out. The only place it has been discussed so far is on your blog. --Bluerock 21:54, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well here are some ideas. Leave the current pages alone that way no links actually need to be changed. from there I have several suggestions. extending the second idea I think it would be good to have a cameos page. This would contain info on Minor characters and also major characters that only make cameo appearances. If we had that we could remove the minor characters page and perhaps move some non-canon events from character pages. --Drawde83 22:38, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * each character has their own page for each game (which has the advantage of keeping things seperate)
 * there is a page for each game with sections for each character.

Age
So is this true and correct? He died, in 2005, at the age of 50, right? That must mean that he was born sometime in 1955. So technically he's 19 YO during the Peace Walker Incident. To me he doen't look like he's 19 in game. But this is my opinion. What are your thoughts? 174.31.38.137 06:34, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Somebody incorrectly changed it from "50s" (given in his official bio for MGS1) to "50," so I've reverted it. Therefore, he could have been born as early as 1946 (or at least sometime during Japan's occupation by the U.S., according to Peace Walker). --Bluerock 09:04, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

What?
It says Miller's line about leaving San Hieranymo behind is a reference to Kojima's opinion. What interview ever had Kojima expressing negative opinion of MPO? I think it's a very good game, myself.


 * Hey, I thought it was a good game myself, as well. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have bothered replaying it. However, I added it in because some people did claim that Miller's reference to San Hieronymo was a hint at Kojima's opinion of that game being negative. I even stated when adding it in that I personally felt that that belief was pure balogna. I've seen it commented on a few people on GameFAQs (one of whom was Ben Reilley), so if you should ask anyone, ask him why he even thought that. Weedle McHairybug 07:46, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Ground Zeroes
In the section for Ground Zeroes, it mentions Kaz telling Big Boss about Paz's survival in the late 70s. Do we really have any idea what year the game will take place? It would seem more likely to take place less than a year after Peace Walker. 76.180.236.29 17:30, December 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * It never mentions anything about a date. It might take place nearing the end of the decade due to some armaments used by the XOF forces, but that's only guesswork, not actual confirmation. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:44, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can we really use technology as a basis when Peace Walker has technology that we don't even have today and likely won't have for many more years? If anything, rather than saying "The late 70s", it should just say "The 70s" 71.126.7.200 18:44, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Kazuhira's true identity
Ocelot and Miller are the same person. Ocelot has always been the one making the secret phone call, and this game is no different. In date with Kaz he makes two gestures that are iconic of ocelot (The clenched fist for example). The sunglasses are the only thing obscuring the fact that his face looks incredibly similar to how it did in mgs3 (Accounting for the difference in texture/model quality)


 * I doubt it. If they were the same person, Ocelot would not have been fought at all in Metal Gear Solid (obviously because Miller had died). 209.179.83.194 17:32, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * ^For the record, that was me. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:32, December 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ocelot could easily have faked his death with a fake body if miller never actually existed in the first place, in a sense, ocelot could have been discarding another of his guises (Miller was found dead days before the shadow Moses mission.) Or maybe recall who was particularly good at disguises in foxhound? :P Liquid was possibly unawares (Recall the MGS1 phonecall in which he says "Nobody knows who I really am".) Also remember ocelot's gruff voice changing as he yelled "My hand!" after having it sliced off. Also ocelot has been present in every solid game, apart from peace walker. Perhaps be was there in front of us the entire time? Even millers supposed birth date is only 2 years later than ocelots.
 * First off, he'd need good DNA for the ruse to work regarding the corpse. I also doubt that Ocelot is as good of a disguise person as, say, Decoy Octopus. Also, considering the amount of trouble Ocelot gave Big Boss during Operation Snake Eater, not to mention their brief work together within the Patriots (you know, prior to Big Boss leaving the group), don't you think Big Boss would at least note some resemblance between him and Ocelot? He doesn't, at all. Either way, we shouldn't speculate here. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 18:30, December 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do agree speculation probably doesn't have a place in the article it's self, certainly. There is definitely a resemblance though! http://i.imgur.com/QNN6b.jpg
 * If there is a resemblance, it's most likely just a coincidence. As noted before, they would have at least attempted to mention that Ocelot and Miller resemble each other. Heck, even Paz would have at least noticed the overall similarities, and seeing how she's a Cipher agent, and Ocelot by that time most likely is one, and Miller was implied to be a temporary business partner to them, she would certainly have at least noted a resemblance to her fellow agent, if not recognized him as Ocelot outright. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:30, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I also forgot to mention something else: Them looking alike does not mean they are one and the same. Olga Gurlukovich and Meryl Silverburgh actually have a passing resemblance to each other (as commented on in-game by Johnny, and if the Document's script is to be believed, even Solid Snake), and yet it is very clear that they were never intended to actually be one and the same. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 12:59, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Solid Snake
Maybe I missed something, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but was Solid Snake ever "trained" in the traditional sense by Master Miller? It seems like their first meeting is actually in Metal Gear 2, and Snake's reminiscence in Metal Gear Solid is all the survival advice that Miller imparted to him in Zanzibar Land. We also don't have a date for Miller's recruitment into FOXHOUND (which is pre-MG2 according to Campbell), so both his and Snake's time in the unit may not even have coincided. Maybe the MGS1 novel gave a different account, I don't know. --Bluerock (talk) 13:19, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * You might be right. In MG2, Campbell describes Miller in a way that suggests Snake never met him.


 * "If you get into trouble, give McDonnell Miller a call. He used to be our survival master. A good man to know. He's also an idea man. Feel free to ask him anything. He'll help you think of a solution."

--68.45.180.241 13:29, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I was wondering whether there might be anything more concrete to go on, as radio conversations are known to blur the lines between characters advising Snake, or advising the game player directly. If there's nothing to indicate that Miller trained Snake personally while in FOXHOUND, the article will require some correction. --Bluerock (talk) 13:38, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Other than the radio conversations, the only other time it was hinted that he trained Snake was in the novel, regarding the codes, telling someone was lying simply by how their eyes behave, and the sixth sense thing (which conveniently was also in-game as an optional codec call). Certainly, Miller's intro call for Metal Gear Solid did suggest that they knew each other and immensely respected each other for quite some time. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:43, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm mainly trying to dismiss the idea that Miller was officially Snake's survival master while in FOXHOUND, which the article is currently claiming without providing good references. Miller could have advised Snake on those things at any point in time. Do you have specific lines from the novel that say otherwise? --Bluerock (talk) 13:51, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, the only definite word I can find of their first meeting comes from the (sigh) MGS4 Database.

"He met Solid Snake at FOXHOUND's training camp."

- Master Miller entry

Doesn't quite say he trained Snake, but I'll reword the article and quote this, in the absence of any other sources. --Bluerock (talk) 15:05, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I found one other source regarding his training Snake in FOXHOUND: It's on page 26 of the Raymond Benson novelization, and I quote: "Snake had hoped that his former FOXHOUND trainer and mentor, whose real name was McDonnel Benedict Miller, would be present. Miller also had retired to the Alaskan wilderness, but Snake had not crossed paths with him in years." Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:11, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Since there's no dates or details on Snake's prior relationship with Miller, the article should just reflect how the Database put it, and not speculate on what he may or may not have been trained. The examples that were previously listed as sources were only what Miller advised Snake on during his actual missions, which is why I removed them as sources for his training at FOXHOUND. --Bluerock (talk) 16:29, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Cyborg Miller?
We all saw that Miller...or Kaz didn't have a right arm or left foot in the new trailer (10.06.13). So, he was a cyborg in Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid before he was killed...or wasn't that even him? CyborgROX (talk) 17:54, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it, he's never actually seen with his full body in Metal Gear 1 and 2. Add to that the fact that Kojima loves to retcon those two games, there's no guarantee he ever gets replacements.

And people have been using the artwork from MGS1 to support that he must get replacements, but honestly, it's just artwork from early in the series, it doesn't mean it's an accurate depiction of the character. For God's Sake, the character of Miller in MGS1 turns out to be Ocelot impersonating him anyway.

To counter my own argument like a fool, Emmerich is observed with robotic legs during the E3 trailer. So perhaps it's possible for good ol' Kaz too. Guess we'll have to wait and see how The Phantom Pain pans out. I'm so excited! - Misterbunnsy (talk) 16:20, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Liquid impersonated Miller. Not Ocelot. 68.45.180.241 16:23, June 11, 2013 (UTC)