Board Thread:Metal Gear Solid V/@comment-3365837-20150304213210/@comment-1672596-20150305114015

Paranoid Donkey wrote: Weedle McHairybug wrote:

Well, come E3 (since they'll probably have some trailer for it by that time anyways now that playtestings done) or even GDC (since Kojima is going to the GDC thing, and I'm doubtful that TPP is the reason anyways), certainly TGS at the latest, if they have anything that is remotely similar to Normandy, then I'll probably be at peace that Kojima will no longer muck up the series. Otherwise, I highly suggest you prepare to get pretty angry when/if it turns out to be for a The Boss game.

Honestly, Peace Walker was a very bad game considering how two of the major characters of the series (Big Boss and Miller) were made exceptionally out of character regarding a certain infamous person in history, the constant love for said infamous person by various characters (honestly, the only hero(ine) who doesn't seem to have a fancrush on the guy at all when it is brought up is Cecile Cosima Caminades, and that's only because she mentioned "[Sartre] does tend to sympathize with the left" in a tone that indicated she didn't agree with Sartre or Snake regarding whether this character was actually all that good.), and so many retcons that made even MGS seem tame in comparison. I actually think Portable Ops was better. Don't get me started on Kojima constantly peddling nihilism via the heroes since MGS2 with the whole moral relativity and nihilistic garbage, even implying that Solid Snake came closest to meeting The Boss's insane philosophy of "keeping things the same" even though destroying Metal Gear IS trying to change the world no matter how you put it. I can tolerate the nihilist/relativist schtick with the villains since at least they're not supposed to be portrayed in a positive light anyways, not to mention they most times have a reason to be that, but the heroes such as The Boss, Solid Snake, Big Boss, Kazuhira Miller? And don't even get me started on his constantly retconning the story since Metal Gear Solid, thus leaving the MSX2 games to be in limbo regarding canon, all because he basically views himself as an "artiste".

With regards to Che, I think that's a bit nit-picky; Kojima never portrays Big Boss or Snake as the arbiters of all that is good, considering Big Boss' first appearance was as a villain this has been abundantly clear. In fact Big Boss makes a big song and dance about not having any -isms to subscribe to, so naturally he wouldn't subscribe to one notion of good (despite the fact he very obviously didn't view himself as a "good guy" since the events of Operation Snake Eater) Aside from that, you don't have to agree with a person's actions to note things like charisma or effectiveness. And your issues regarding nihilism and moral relativity (morals are relative by the way, I encourage you to take an anthropology class if you disagree) are basically a case of "stop liking what I don't like".

It seems you've got more bad things to say about the series than good, and in that case it honestly baffles me why you would play the games if that's your stance on them.

No, but Miller's characterization in MG2 and to a lesser extent MGS (since that technically wasn't Miller but Liquid posing as him) definitely would have made it impossible for him to be a Che fanboy, not to mention Snake already encountered a character like Che, Colonel Volgin, and he hated his guts, especially after learning from EVA about his role in the Katyn Forest Massacre and how he did it.

And apparently, you don't seem to realize that claiming that things changing with the times IS ascribing to relativism whether you like it or not, as is claiming there's no point to believing in anything beyond the mission (which also ascribes itself to nihilism, BTW, since the idea behind nihilism is that there's nothing that really matters and there's no point in believing in anything.). It doesn't matter whether you claim yourself to be that, what matters is if it matches the description. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck, after all. And even that "song and dance" you alluded to is contradicted with the Sartre tape where it is implied he actually does ascribe himself to Sartre's Existentialism (which BTW is relativism and nihilism), at least after Cecile explained what Sartre's existentialism amounted to.

And actually, don't bother suggesting I take an anthropology class, as I actually did take one, and it turned out to be a big mistake as a result, especially when the professor late into the semester basically dropped the bombshell that it was a Marxist study. And for the record, morals ARE absolutes. Do you honestly think we'd get the Ten Commandments if morality was relative, in other words, meaningless? When it's relative, it's meaningless, since what's the point of even having it or following it if it's different every time?

I noticed Weedle likes to bring up the subject of Nihilism a lot. It sounds as though he/she harbors a personal grudge towards it, and has taken the franchise personally as a result. I never got the sense that Metal Gear encouraged nihilism, so much as it promoted introspection. When you make things black and white, there's little to discuss. Moral relativity has always been present in order to address the actions of the player, not just those of the characters.

When Liquid accuses Snake of enjoying all the killing, that is being directed at the player. If you went through the game without killing, then it makes Liquid look bad. However, if you killed everyone, then the accusations hold some truth. MGS doesn't encourage one truth over another, so that the player can interpret the game according to how they personally played it. The biggest challenge is to attain Big Boss rank, which involves killing the least amount of enemies. You're basically given the option to play as a hero, or be guilted into believing you may possible be the villain.

Actually, no, it's not "directed at the player." If it actually was that, Liquid would actually be reciting specific numbers that match up with how many people Snake killed, or at the very least using phraseology that implies the actual amount (ie, few, some, many, and most), rather than using one word every time regardless of how many the player actually killed (for a good example of a villain's claims actually being directed at the player, look at how Pyro Bison accused Snake in Ghost Babel. Not only did he accuse Snake of killing, he even went as far as to give a specific number that matched up with the player's kill count up to that point, it changing depending on how many people the player killed. Or hey, look at Colonel Volgin's comments before torturing Snake: Depending on how the player did things, Snake could be commented on having soft skin [for not having serious injuries for the most part], having a fair share of battles before commenting that he'll know what hell is like [moderate serious injuries] and being impressed by Snake's will to live [significant amount of serious injuries]).

And BTW, the definition of nihilism is claiming that nothing really matters or there isn't any point to believing in anything, and that's EXACTLY what The Boss promoted (heck, she even said explicitly that there's no point in believing in anything so long as you have the mission, and having relationships is the greatest sin a soldier could make). The definition also carries out that there is no such thing as absolute reality as well, hence Snake's MGS2 final speech oozed with it. Like it or not, it actually DOES promote it. It fits the definition. Or do I really have to post those quotes proving it?