Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-5038094-20140721042428/@comment-1672596-20140906145220

Bluerock wrote: Weedle, at least structure your responses so they are at least intelligible. Seriously, bullet points would work wonders.

Weedle McHairybug wrote: All they need to do is incorporate several of the stuff stated into the manual into the actual game for MG2's remake, and the filler problem is solved.

I really don't think that's enough content to create an engaging story. At best, they'd be optional radio conversations.

[I]MG2 wasn't exactly bare-bones in its storyline. Heck, it had even more of a solid story than Metal Gear.[/I]

Weedle McHairybug wrote: ...there's how FOXHOUND's founding was retconned constantly since MGS1, eventually being settled with MGS3/MPO...

There was ONE retcon (NATO=>U.S. Army as its parent organization). Besides which, that was purely manual content, which was not in the final game.

'''Considering the wiki counts manual information as canon info over, you know, stuff like novelizations and the OMH, that's still enough to qualify (not to mention that the manual was actually necessary for MG2 at least, since you literally can't complete the game without it thanks to it being needed for decoding certain radio frequencies that were needed to advance forward in the game, meaning the backstories were definitely canon.). And it was more than just the NATO=>U.S. Army change: Big Boss wasn't even considered the founder of FOXHOUND in MG2, just the nominated commander. It wasn't until MGS1 that Big Boss actually was considered the founder, and even the time period it was founded in was altered, as both MG2 and even MGS1 made clear it was founded in the 1990s, with the latter specifying that the Gulf War was responsible for its founding. In MGS3, it was founded two decades earlier, and for a different reason as well.'''

Weedle McHairybug wrote: ...and how if we go by MGS4, heck, even to a lesser extent MGS2, not only is OILIX not even mentioned, but they don't even acknowledge how it saved the world or not at all and even implied a few times from both Roy Campbell and EVA/Big Mama that a terrible oil economy was largely responsible for the advent of the war economy in MGS4, despite the fact that OILIX shouldn't even allow for an oil shortage...

So OILIX was never successfully implemented. I imagine such an endeavor would be a hugely complex task to carry out. Campbell and Holly were optimistic at the end of MG2.

'''Except they should have actually addressed that it failed or at least abandoned due to being too costly to maintain in the games, even the manual if needs be. Probably the closest they've actually gotten to actually addressing it is Doktor's mention that the Patriots were close to discovering a perpetual energy supply in Revengeance after getting twenty cyborg arms, and even then it wasn't clear if they were actually referring to OILIX.'''

Weedle McHairybug wrote: Solid Snake also came across as being the same character in MGS that he was in MG2, even though he explicitly stated he succeeded in ending his nightmares of Outer Heaven.

Surely that's a fault of MGS1 then? Should MGS1 be remade to address this? Of course not. Besides which, PTSD isn't something that's just magically cured in an instant, let alone in a day.

'''Except Solid Snake explicitly stated he stopped having the nightmares and PTSD relating to Metal Gear 2, meaning he did in fact change in the ending (heck, curing it was the reason he even participated in the events of Zanzibar Land in the first place). And it wouldn't be instantaneous either, as he already stated that he had nightmares for three years (technically four, but still...). And my point with bringing it up was because I've seen a lot of detractors comment that Big Boss's regression in PW meant MPO couldn't be canon, yet they ignored that regression between MG2 and MGS.'''

Weedle McHairybug wrote: That's not even getting into the huge alterations in certain characters backstories, such as Gray Fox and Master Miller, even Big Boss's backstory to a lesser extent.

HUGE alterations? Nonsense. Kojima stated MPO doesn't quite fit continuity even though its canon, so that covers Fox, except for Vietnam (one inconsistency is hardly a reason to remake an entire game, as I said just reword it in a non-3D re-release/remake). Miller, he worked against Big Boss later on, so what? People's motivations change with the times. Big Boss's backstory was fleshed out over time, again just reword the little inconsistencies.

'''A lot of people complained about Gray Fox's change in backstory, and considering Gray Fox's actions are covered in the MGS4 database, that at least is still canon. And considering one of the controversial aspects of Portable Ops IS how Gray Fox was characterized, that's a pretty huge alteration. And as far as Miller, I was actually referring to his backstory from MG2 (you know, the bit about being born about sixty years after migrating to Japan), not simply his turning against Big Boss (That doesn't need much elaboration, unless the Phantom Pain decides to have him stick with Big Boss up to Zanzibar Land). And if Ground Zeroes' deja vu mission is anything to go by, they may have even fully retconned his name.'''

Weedle McHairybug wrote: And Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes, heck, possibly even The Phantom Pain strongly contradicted with the narrative that Big Boss's ties to Outer Heaven were kept a secret, even from Zero, until AFTER the Outer Heaven Uprising in 1995

I don't recall this EVER being contradicted. The state of Outer Heaven in South Africa and Big Boss's relationship with the U.S. military around that period have not even been explored.

'''Okay, the games, even Metal Gear Solid 4, made very clear that no one, not even Zero (EVA even mentioned he formed the AI system precisely because of the sting of betrayal he felt when he learned Big Boss betrayed him), knew that Big Boss was the leader of Outer Heaven. This was conflicted with three games, including The Phantom Pain:'''
 * In the ending for Peace Walker, it was revealed that, at the very least, the Patriots had control over the NSA, NRO, DIA, and CSS branches of the United States, and that's not even getting into their having some degree of control over the CIA and the KGB as well, even if indirect thanks largely to Paz. Heck, he even had Paz attempt to launch a nuke at the East Coast in an attempt to force Big Boss to join.
 * Then we get into Ground Zeroes, and it reveals that Cipher had some influence over the UN and the IAEA, plus the Marines at the US Naval prison facility in Cuba the ending even implied that it may have even subjected the US and its allies to a huge scandal relating to MSF's ties to them simply to take them out. And that's just in the main story. If the Side Ops are to be considered canon, they also had some degree of control over the MI6, BND, ISI, and at least one Soviet intelligence agency. Probably the only group they didn't have control over yet was the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
 * Then with the Phantom Pain, both Ocelot and Ishmael referred to Big Boss as a wanted man that the entire world "wanted [him] dead," and considering the latter said this when the hospital Snake was staying at was being attacked by a military force that was obviously after Big Boss's head, it's unlikely they were engaging in hyperbole. Even if we are to agree that Big Boss somehow managed to clear his name of all charges, that still doesn't explain how ZERO would not see it coming that Big Boss would lead Outer Heaven, especially when he had control over a large bit of various agencies and groups across the globe even back then, to say little of the influence they would later have in the 1990s and 2000s. Not to mention, considering the Patriots' treatment of The Boss (despite being formed to promote her philosophy) and heck, how they treated Solid Snake and Otacon (and that was one of their clones of Big Boss), even Dead Cell, it's extremely unlikely the Patriots, especially Zero, would simply "forgive" Big Boss of him going against them. That's what I'm getting at. Peace Walker really messed up in that regard.

Weedle McHairybug wrote: ...which means Kojima basically made remakes inevitable.

No writer or story is perfect, however much you may want them to be. As I said reword all the little inconsistencies for all the pedants out there and touch up the game graphically so it looks and plays nicely, but don't create an entirely new 3D game with little resemblance to the originals (which is what is being argued for).

Remakes of the classic games will not make the series come full circle, rather it will just create an endless cycle of remakes as the older games inevitably become aged and outdated. Time to move on.

'''They may not be perfect, but they do need to keep them as close to continuity as possible rather than retconning the heck out of them. Heck, Metroid Zero Mission was formed precisely because there were conflicts in the story.'''

Responded inside the quote brackets for efficiency.