Talk:Outer Heaven

nazism
is outer heaven a nazi organization?it has a nazi symbol on the skull.11:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)The x reaper
 * The Swastika is not a Nazi symbol, it is merely a symbol the Nazi's stole and used. The symbol is connected to many religions (including Hinduism and Buddhism). You can read more about it here. --Fantomas 17:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * i know bout it being religious, but i just noticed it is the wrong way around.--21:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)The x reaper
 * Technically, the way it's facing on the Outer Heaven symbol is the "right way round" and the way the Nazi's used it (facing to the right) is the wrong way round. Although both versions have been used for religious symbolism, the right facing way has been considered by many modern scholars as the "evil swastika" and I believe it is no longer used like that in religions. --Fantomas 22:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

MAJIN or BAN(Final in English) is the symbol of enlightenment and has been around for 100's of years, educate yourself self please before jumping to conclusions and putting up something like this
 * I mentioned the issue on the Trivia section, and I also made sure to note that, upon further inspection, the symbol that initially appeared on the forehead of the Skull on the logo was actually a Majin and not a Swatstika at first sight. I also thought it would be interesting to note that the whole issue may have been early foreshadowing about how Outer Heaven was not as bad as originally thought (I mean, if Hideo Kojima wanted something to liken it to the Nazis, don't you think that he would have used the actual logo of the Nazis instead of it's mirror counterpart, and arguably, the origin of the symbol [the Majin].) Weedle McHairybug 04:06, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * But can't we add a line that says it could mean something about Big Boss' fall from grace? I mean, the symbol was once a symbol of good, but now is used to symbolize evil. Similarly, Naked Snake was once good, but later turned "evil" (as some would put it. Or... do you think never ending war isn't as bad as most people make it out to be?) That "it could be an early foreshadowing that Outer Heaven wasn't as as evil as initially believed" line is frustrating. -John- 14:28, June 17. 2010 (ETC)
 * Well, I would say that "evil" isn't really the right word anyway. But both viewpoints seem valid. --Bluerock 18:49, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's why I put "evil" in quotation marks. But thank you. -John- 14:54. June 17. 2010 (ETC)
 * I actually meant the wording in the article. --Bluerock 19:41, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

NATO bombing
Why would NATO bomb Outer Heaven if it had already self-destructed? Has the self-destruction been retconned from ever happening, as there is no mention at all in the MGS4 database? Instead it says that the supposed "earthquake" (resulting from the explosion at the end of the game) was actually caused by the bombing and not any sort of self-destruct. --Bluerock 14:25, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss' Dream
Okay, this Wiki article is getting on my nerves. It was explicitly stated that Big Boss' dream of Outer Heaven was to create constant warfare, a world where "soldiers will always have a place." Liquid Ocelot himself said that his goal was to create world chaos, as that was the perfect world Big Boss envisioned. Otacon later explained that Naomi and Sunny's FOXALIVE virus prevented that. So why does, at the end of the section for Liquid Ocelot's Outer Heaven Mother Company, state that "After the destruction of the Patriots's AI, Big Boss's dreams of Outer Heaven had, in effect, finally come to be"? The goal of Outer Heaven wasn't to stop the Patriots, but to create world chaos. The Patriots was simply in the way. THAT'S why he wanted to stop the Patriots. But there was no world chaos at the end of MGS4, so Big Boss dream didn't "came to be" at all! -John- 14:28, June 17. 2010 (ETC)
 * If he wanted world chaos, why didn't he pull a Coldman, and actually THREATEN to cause a Nuclear War (as in, send a broadcasted televised speech hacked into their mainframes stating he is going to launch a nuke to every continent to start a Nuclear War. Or heck, have one of his scientists hack the mainframes with Nuclear Missiles) It's evident that The Patriots truly weren't actually going to disarm Nuclear Weapons, as evidenced with Shadow Moses and the fact that Arsenal Gear was completely armed with Nukes. Heck, what The Patriots did in Metal Gear Solid 4 was far closer to the whole Global Chaos issue than what Big Boss ever could come up to. Weedle McHairybug 18:43, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * You are somewhat right, John. I think his initial "dream" was simply that soldiers no longer be used and discarded as political tools, but his method of bringing this about was to create a world of constant warfare. I suppose the definition of Outer Heaven could be interpreted differently. In fact, the war economy created by the Patriots could be said to have brought about Big Boss's dream of Outer Heaven. I guess with the destruction of the AIs, his ultimate goal was accomplished, but the concept of Outer Heaven is not what brought it about. The article does need rewording, I agree with that, but I can see where the confucion would stem from. --Bluerock 18:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Bluerock. However, if Big Boss' dream of Outer Heaven was fulfilled with the Patriot's War Economy, then why does Liquid Ocelot, a combination of two of Big Boss' biggest admirers (okay, Liquid hated Big Boss, but you get the idea) try to stop the Patriots? It's because these soldiers were still being abused by world governments, something Big Boss wanted to stop. You can say he was inspired to do this when he heard of the Boss' experience with her being abused by the US government, and that he wished to create a "heaven" for people like her. You could say that's admirable, but it doesn't make him a hero (like I feel this article somewhat makes him out to be.) But that doesn't make him 100% evil either (like I sometimes make him out to be in response to people that DO call him a hero. lol) Also, Weedle, the reason he didn't pull a Coldman was because he didn't want to nuke the planet (though he does have nukes, in case he wishes to use them.) Oh, and Coldman's ultimate goal was deterrence and his idea of "peace"... that's not global chaos. -John- 15:03 June 17, 2010 (ETC)
 * That's the biggest problem with the whole issue about his wanting global chaos, since the Patriots already fulfilled that dream with the War Economy, something that even Big Boss disapproved of. I know if I were him, and my dream involved global chaos, I'd actually approve of The Patriots implementing the War Economy almost psychotically. And besides, didn't Liquid Snake mention that he wanted to continue Big Boss's dream in order to further destroy Big Boss during his speech atop Metal Gear REX? That implies that his continuing Big Boss's dream was not because he actually wanted to help Big Boss in his goal in spirit as much as tarnish his memory even more. And regardless of whether Coldman wanted deterrence or not, He still did, in a way, cause global chaos (NORAD was in a panic, and several Nuclear Silos, including those in China, had trajectory data on them when the Chairman and Miller were mentioning that the world was at stake, indicating that China and any country that has Nukes also got the same ones as well, not to mention that he knew that Cuba was directly the target of a Nuclear Strike when he did it.). Most people would realize that that WOULD cause global chaos. Weedle McHairybug 19:18, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * The dream wasn't truly fulfilled, since the Patriots' world still abused its soldiers, but the concept behind constant global warfare was. Outer Heaven's aim was only partially achieved, I guess. With the Patriots still in power, it wasn't truly Outer Heaven, but sort of an analogue. That's my view anyway. I also agree about the portrayal of Big Boss as a true "hero" isn't really accurate. No one can agree with his methods, but he is a soldier, not a politician, and fighting is all he really knows. Similar to how Gray Fix put it, he always fought for what he believed in at least.--Bluerock 19:21, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * You could say that the Patriots twisted his vision for their own ends, as befits their nature. --Bluerock 19:24, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * In a briefing tape (Paz's diary), Snake also hints that while he may not particularly care for Peace, and the only thing he knows is fighting, that doesn't mean that he holds grudges against those who do value peace, meaning he may be at least tolerant of those who enjoy Peace. Weedle McHairybug 19:39, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Though it is equally possible that he may not have cared for those desiring peace.--Bluerock 19:45, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, like he's neutral to peace-lovers. Neither liking them nor hating them. They're just there in his mind. Weedle McHairybug 19:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would also like to point out that Snake and Liquid Ocelot were NOT on the same side. Similar to Big Boss, Liquid Ocelot wanted global chaos (he brings this up before he dies, and before that, said that the way he believed the events went out was "precisely how [he] wanted things to end!" In MGS1, Ocelot even mentions how he believes there isn't enough "tension" in the world, and also how Liquid is "the one man that can make my dream a reality" after a few torture sessions.) I interpret FOXALIVE as just Liquid's backup plan. He believed his plan would have worked regardless if he launched the nuke or if Snake uploaded FOXALIVE (because he believed it would completely wipe out the Patriots, without keeping any of the vital lifelines of society intact.) This would explain why Liquid Ocelot tried to kill Snake so many times; he didn't need him. -John-, June 20, 17:23 (ETC)
 * It does make sense for FOXALIVE to be a backup plan, seeing as he would achieve his aim regardless of whether he won or lost. But he did have a lot of easy opportunities to take out Snake, (and even destroy the Missouri, since he could just have had the RAYs slice its hull up), which seems to indicate that he did need the virus to be uploaded. Perhaps it was a better gamble, than launching the nuke? --Bluerock 12:25, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Liquid could have killed Snake when strapped to the torture device in MGS1. He then later tried to bomb the **** (not sure if we're aloud to swear here) out of him with the Hind-D. Then at the end, Liquid was all like "lol i set u up." Similar thing here. Liquid Ocelot could have killed Snake at the end of Act 3. Then he tried to CRUSH SNAKE WITH OUTER HAVEN! Then at the end, he's all like "lol this is how i wanted everything to go down." Now, don't tell me FOXHOUND didn't give Snake everything they had to kill Snake, or that Liquid was purposefully missing in the Hind-D so Snake could beat him. But even then, there's a big difference between missing shots and CRUSHING SOMEONE HEAD ON WITH AN GIANT SHIP! Had it not been for Raiden stopping Outer Haven long enough for the Missouri to catch up, Snake would have been a "snake-sandwich" (lolcwatididthar?) The reason they didn't fire back at the Missouri at the time was because they needed to catch up to JD and it was all a waste of time. One of those "I'll get you next time" James Bond moments. That, or the simple explanation; it's better for story development. -John- 12:24, June 21, 2010 (ETC)
 * Has it ever occured to you that Liquid Ocelot may have anticipated that Raiden may have been on the island and nearby, so he was trying to ram Snake with the ship knowing full well that Raiden would stop it? I mean, the whole reviving Big Boss issue was both his own and EVA's plan, even IF he hid the whole Liquid being fake part from EVA. Knowing this, then he'd also know that Raiden was briefly under her employ to rescue Big Boss's body, and I'm pretty sure that Vamp would have told Ocelot about his confrontation with Raiden, seeing how that would have been a vitally important detail. Assuming that the whole issue with Raiden and Crying Wolf picture is in Rising as well...
 * Anyways, he may have been intending to ram Snake down, and yet not intending to do so at the same time, you know? Besides, he could have just charged at the Missouri when firing the warning shot and rammed it, thus both destroying the Missouri and keeping enough time to get to JD when it hits prodigy. If Bluerock or you have a better explaination, I'll let you. Weedle McHairybug 16:58, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's just for dramatic effect in terms of the story, in both MGS1 and MGS4. If Liquid isn't seen to actively want to destroy Snake, then we as the audience will catch on that something isn't quite right. As to how the inconsistency is explained in canon is anyone's guess really.
 * As for MGS1, maybe FOXHOUND did give Snake everything they had, and Liquid was confident he would succeed regardless, given that he believed Snake to be a "superior" clone of Big Boss. But that's just speculation. His plan to have him activate REX was definitely in motion by the time he encountered Raven in the tank (Raven: "Well Boss, I hope you are happy. He got the card." // Liquid: "We'll play with him a little longer.") Optional Codec conversations also reveal he had little respect for the abilities of some of his comrades, after they are defated by Snake (while disguised as Miller). --Bluerock 17:34, June 21, 2010 (UTC)