Talk:Solid Snake


 * With all due respect Fantomas, I'd rather see this discussion updated rather than left with updates that date all the way back to yesteryear. So, unless you object to this deletion, please feel free to make new one's.
 * That's fine, I was getting tired of seeing all the old discussion as well! --Fantomas 08:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Snake's Personality and Views
I'll go first, now that we know that we know that the script from Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes is can168.10.192.3 17:04, September 27, 2010 (UTC)onical with the series (minus the cutscenes themselves) shouldn't we change the way it was worded to how it is from the remake?
 * I don't think it makes too much difference to be honest. It all depends on what each persons idea of "canon" is though, which complicates things. Some people refuse to accept The Twin Snakes as canon, and some people prefer it over the original. Maybe we should just leave it as is? --Fantomas 08:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh to tell you the truth, I think it kinda discredits everyone who worked on the remake including the voice actors themselfs who went to the trouble of doing it all over again, but differently. Plus the way I see it, if Snake remembers it that way, we should remember the script that way too. Just disregard all the pompus and confusing Matrix-style scenes that went with it, and remember just the less dramatic scenes that came with the PS1 version as it shows in MGS4 I say.


 * i just belive that since Snake views most of his memories in MGS1 or Twin Snakes as form MGS1 including the graphics then thats the canon. and MGS1 is also the MGS1 Hideo belives is the main one over MGS: TS you'll notice most of the recurring characters have the same voice e.g. Mei Ling. does anyone know where Naomi got that voice? in MGS1 she was kinda Russian is it the MGS: TS voice actor. Onikage01 19:33, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Russian?!?!?!? Nah, she was English in the original. sorta. Mei Ling had a slight Chinese accent in the original, too. Now, both of these disappeared for TTS, the idea being that since they both grew up in America it seemed kind of more logical if they both had more American accents. Mei Ling and Naomi both have American accents in MGS4. All the audio flashbacks from Shadow Moses are also from TTS (I am aware of the real reason behind this, but that doesn't change that fact).

Regardless of this, all the visual flashbacks seem to MGS1 graphics. This causes some bizarre canonicity issues, whereby the video of MGS1 and the audio of TTS are canonical, but vice-versa is not. Maybe that should be the way re regard it? That seems to keep everybody happy, keeping all the flashbacks canonical and allowing people to say that those annoying matrix-like scenes were non-canonical. Chaos91 20:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we disregard all the "Matrix-style" scenes in MGS2 as well?Ether101 Prime 06:55, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, none of the returning characters have the accents form the original and they all shared the same VAs in both versions of the game.Ether101 Prime 06:55, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that makes no sense, Kojima has show that all versions of MGS1 are canon. And Snake dose over the top impossible stuff in both MGS1 & 2, remember when he jumps 30 feet into the ocean, so no one should have a problem with those sences.Ether101 Prime 06:55, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Snake's lifespan
I think there's a lot of confusion over the part of Act 2 when Naomi tells Snake he's got "half a year" -- it's not that she thinks he'll only live 6 more months due to his aging; she specifically says that she isn't referring to his lifespan:

Snake: How long do I have?

Naomi: ...Half a year. [In reference to his smoking] Don't. Snake. There's something I have to tell you.

Snake: Now what?

Naomi: You and I both know your body is approaching its limit. When I said another half a year, I wasn't talking about your lifespan. Listen to me. FOXDIE only kills its victims when the infected person's genetic code... Fully matches the genetic sequence programmed into the virus's receptors. In other words... It only attacks targets with specific genes.

Snake: I know. That's what killed the AT president... And Liquid.

Naomi: Yes. And at the same time, it's set up to protect those not designated as targets from the virus's harmful effects. Here... I'll show you. The receptors on the FOXDIE inside your body are breaking down. The rapid aging process is changing the environment within your body. As a result, the virus is starting to mutate. The viruses on the left are FOXDIE in its original form. The ones on the right I took from your body. They're already mutated. The receptors - they're wearing down.

Snake: Meaning?

Naomi: This mutated version of FOXDIE could activate... Even if the infected person's genetic pattern doesn't perfectly match the receptors. Which means the virus is becoming indiscriminate about what type of target it kills.

(Sorry for the long reproduction of dialogue.)

She goes on to say that he has 3 months until the virus mutates enough to begin to affect others. The 6-month limit is her estimation of when the virus will mutate enough to kill Snake himself.

This is backed up by the fact that at the end of "Naked Son," when Snake finds out that the new strain of FOXDIE has neutralized the earlier mutated strain, he asks Big Boss, "Am I going to die?" -- the 6-month limit was for the FOXDIE, not the limit of his lifespan due to the accelerated aging. Big Boss even goes so far as to state that the new FOXDIE will eventually mutate as well, if Snake lives long enough, implying that he has more than 6 months as well.

The fact that everyone is misquoting Naomi (when she specifically says she's not referring to the length of Snake's lifespan) is driving me crazy! We don't know how long he'll live, but the 6-month estimate was not for his lifespan. ^_^


 * Sorry about that! I think a lot of the parts where that was written was when it was mentioned in one of the trailers, and we hadn't updated them yet. But still, thanks a lot for clearing it up. --Fantomas 21:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

FOXDIE and AGING: The demise of Solid Snake.
Solid Snake appears old in MGS4 since he was either injected with FOXDIE or it is a side effect of his conception as an artificially created human being. In the end of MGS4, Snake is said to have been dying and spends his remaining days alone. Numerous articles also indicate that MGS4 is the final story and that there will no longer be a Metal Gear sequel since Solid Snake is dying and that eliminating Ocelot is his final mission. However the story can still continue because of the following arguments:

1) Naked Snake his father was presumed to be dead but was in fact alive and is kept alive by the patriots through Nanotechnology.

2) If the patriots wish to keep Solid Snake alive, they would have developed a similar remedy for cloned warriors.

3) In addition, when Naked Snake dies it is due to unknown reasons. It is presumed that Naked Snake was killed by the Patriots remotely at that instance after revealing truths to Solid Snake. Power therefore is at the hands of the patriots and it is they who determine which soldier lives or dies.

4) In early 2008, an article indicated that Hideo Kojima is thinking about Metal Gear Solid 5. It was also announced that MGS4 was written in a way which indicated that it is the final story... or is it?

Retrieved from "http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Solidgear"
 * Solid Snake was aging because of the limitations set on him when he was created. They tampered with his genes to make him age rapidly. As for the res of your comments:
 * 1) There would be no point in keeping Solid alive. He's aging rapidly, and his cells are now useless. Also, there are no Patriots left, so why would anyone want to keep him alive?
 * 2) Again there are no Patriots left.
 * 3) Naked Snake didn't die by "unknown reasons", he was burned alive by Solid Snake (see here). If you're referring to when he dies at the end of MGS4, it was the result of the newer FOXDIE virus which was injected into Solid Snake by Drebin, this version of FOXDIE also killed EVA and Ocelot.
 * 4) Kojima did mention he was thinking about MGS5, but he has also stated that MGS4 is the last Metal Gear game in the current storyline featuring Snake. He's stated several times that he wants other people to make more Metal Gear games, whether they focus on other characters (like Meryl and Johnny for example) or feature brand new characters.
 * Hope that helps! --Fantomas 09:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I sure hope Snake lives longer than most of us expect for him to live, because it just wouldn't be the same game without him. --User:BigBØss 2:12, 22 December 2008

I heard somewhere that if there is an MGS5 that it will not be from Konami ?!?!?! Bigbossash 18:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Whoever told you that is an idiot and you should never talk to them again. --Fantomas 19:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, I thought it was a load of rubbish anyway just thought i'd bring it up Bigbossash 21:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Even IF there's a MGS5, we can definitely count Solid Snake out, as Kojima stated that he would not allow Snake to be used in any official continuations of the MGS series.

LBP
"Old Snake" is a costume for the upcoming LittleBIGPlanet game for the PS3.  Myself 123  11:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC) There is also Meryl, Raiden and I think Screaming Mantis although most of you will probably know this Bigbossash 21:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

New biography
I have streamlined the biography section. I hope there are no objections. Not 100% as the meaning of the "this section is being revamped" message under the GOTP section, but if someone is working on a better summary be my guest cause I had a little trouble doing that one. Chaos91 00:27, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw that. Good job. I was the one working on a better bio section, but I had run into a stump when trying to summarize the events of MGS4. There are a couple little bits I will add to your version (mainly regarding Snake's childhood), but other than that, it seems pretty good. I'll give it a more proper run-through later. --Fantomas 01:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

As an Oregonian, I'm proud, surprised, and confused to find out that Snake was originally raised somewhere here in Oregon. But it should be noted that the only Kiddieland Amusement Park is an amusement park located just west of Chicago at the corner of North Avenue and First Avenue in Melrose Park, Illinois. Oaks Amusement Park would've made more sense. If he weekly went to Illinois from Oregon during the summertime to have the only amount of fun he can have in his childhood, then he or someone must've been particular about going to an amusement park about 1,706 miles away from home. If they always flew there, it'd always be a three hour trip. Much shorter than a thirty-one hour trip if they drove there. With the impracticallity of it all, it's a conundrum!
 * Dude, it's fiction. This sort of stuff happens all the time. --Fantomas 10:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

are you taking into account when he was a child?

Check this out, just some interesting trivia
MGS4 appeared in a Cyril Takayama special. Lol, it was pretty interesting. Just thought it should be added. It's on youtube, if you want to watch it, but yeah.

Snake MGA additions
is this the same snake as in MGA2? If so wouldn't it be better to extend Snake (MGA2) rather than this massive one. If not then maybe it should have it's own article. --Drawde83 22:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There was no need for a such a huge biography of the MGA Snake here. I've split it into its own article, but it needs a lot of work. I have never played MGA, so if someone familiar with the game could fix that page up - then great! -Chaos91 22:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone think the picture of Snake from MGA2 should be removed? After all MGA2's Snake is a clone of Snake...he's not the REAL Solid Snake. -BigBoss1292 18:02, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the Snake from MGA1 isn't the real Snake either, though both are mentioned in the "Other Appearances", along with the other non-canon depictions. But yeah, they could be moved to the seperate Solid Snake (Metal Gear Acid) and Snake (Metal Gear Acid 2) pages. --Bluerock 18:10, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the Snake from MGA1 isn't the real Snake either, though both are mentioned in the "Other Appearances", along with the other non-canon depictions. But yeah, they could be moved to the seperate Solid Snake (Metal Gear Acid) and Snake (Metal Gear Acid 2) pages. --Bluerock 18:10, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

nationalty
it says hes american but isnt he half japanesse?


 * He has some japanese in him, but the amount is uncertain. Yoji Shinkawa (lead MGS character designer) once spoke of Snake being British-Japanese in appearance in his mind. Regardless, he possesses American identification and was raised to adulthood in the USA.
 * The amount isn't "uncertain" by any means, unless there is an uncertain amount of Japanese on Naked Snake's side. The Enfants Terrible were created by combining Big Boss' genetic data with a fertile egg taken from a Japanese woman. In other words, half of Snake's genetic code is from his father, Big Boss, and the other half is from an unknown Japanese woman. Atypicaloracle 19:24, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, that isn't correct. The unknown Japanese woman provided minimal, if any, genetic coding, it was just an egg cell to house Big Boss's DNA and grow it into a clone fetus. Kojima's explanation of Solid Snake having 'blood from the East' in this way is totally inaccurate. It is therefore due to Big Boss being of some Japanese descent, I'm sure he's referred to as third-generation Japanese-American in some official sources (exactly which ones I'm not sure), similar to Master Miller. --Bluerock 20:16, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

dazed
ok i use to think i knew it but after reding im kunfused O_o so on metal gear solid liquid snake is the infeur clone and solid snake is the supuer clone right, but liqiud thought he was the better clone and thought solid was the crap clone right?-- Noname The Hero  ( Hero Talk ) 18:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's the other way around. Liquid was the Superior clone, but he thought he was the inferior one, just as Snake was the inferior clone whom Liquid was told was the superior one. --Fantomas 18:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But then why does solid look so much like big boss, and if you are telling me the truth then that just made solid snake even more of a bad ass, wow the crap clone beat the better clone even when that better clone was useing a metal gear and not just a metal gear, Metal gear rex, and its ironic that the better clone coudint even kill the crap clone with metal gear rex while the crap clone was just runing around on the ground. but the crap clone used the metal gear rex to beat the better clone who was in metal gear ray.-- Noname The Hero  [[Image:FOXHOUND Logo.png|50px]]( Hero Talk ) 18:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In answer to your first question: it's a video game, it doesn't follow our rules. Snake didn't look more like Big Boss until MGS3 when young Big Boss was shown, and I believe the reason for that is because Kojima wanted people to think you actually were playing as Solid Snake. It didn't work, no one fell for it, we all knew it was Big Boss, but it was a fair attempt on Kojima's part.
 * In response to your part about the REX vs. RAY fight, yes. That whole fight was a metaphor for how Snake, the inferior clone, always manages to one up Liquid, the superior clone, even when they're fighting in Metal Gear's which mirror their own respective inferiority/superiority. It was one of my favourite moments in MGS4. --Fantomas 18:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I fell for the trick on snake eater :( i really thought it was solid snake untill i played MGS3-- Noname The Hero  ( Hero Talk ) 18:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The theme behind MGS was the whole nature vs nurture debate. If you look at their experiences Solid Snake was a hero that had saved the world several times before. While Liquid had been a POW in Iraq that was obsessed over his inferiority (even though he wasn't). All of this gave Solid Snake the mental edge. And at the end it didn't matter because FOXDIE could have killed either of them regardless of their abilities (yeah I know Solid Snake lived but that was the message I got out of it). --Drawde83 21:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He's actually talking about the MGS1 Rex versus Snake fight there. Rex beating Ray isn't actually much of a surprise; Ray is a missile bus designed to hunt targets at long range in coordinated groups while Rex is a walking tank designed to defend itself against other armoured vehicles. In a direct-fire matchup one-on-one, none of Ray's advantages really matter and the limited range of motion of its weapons (especially the guns on the tips of the 'wings') really hurt it. Plus it was a mass-prod Ray, since it had no tail. MGS2 is pretty clear that massprod Ray armour is pathetic; even Soldus' P90 could kill them. I'd say really it was only because it was a severely damaged Rex against a pristine Ray that it was even a fight. Evil Tim 09:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He actually does mention the RAY Vs. REX fight right at the end there. But, I don't recall anywhere that states RAY was designed to hunt at long range in coordinated groups. What I do know is that RAY was specifically designed as a REX killer. It's speed and agility outdo REX's ten-fold. --Fantomas 10:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It comes from looking at the armament, really; RAY's rotary guns are ridiculously placed and the hydro-cutter is in a limited traverse mounting and is only effective at extremely short ranges. That suggests its primary weapon against another Metal Gear would be missiles; presumably the idea would be for a coordinated group to attack at extreme range and swamp a target with more missiles than it could shoot down while using their high mobility for evading return fire. The fact that the mass-prod RAY is specifically designed for large-scale deployment with a coordinating AI would bring to mind, say, a party of huntsmen with longbows against a single lion. Sure, they're trained to kill lions. They're good at it together. That doesn't mean one huntsman with knife and bow would be a good match for one lion at close range, though. Evil Tim 10:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It was only ever said that Solid inherited the inferior "soldier genes." he could have very well inherited other dominant genes that help determine appearance. Cheesedude 21:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, they're identical. The games said so. Evil Tim 17:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Quotes
I was thinking mabey we sould make a quote section. You know like Epic quotes like the one that The boss says "One must die and one must live. No victory, no defeat. The survivor will carry on the fight. It is our destiny... The one who survives will inherit the title of Boss. And the one who inherits the title of Boss will face an existence of endless battle." that would go on The Boss's page and like the one when Gray fox says "We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in.". Becuse i have been looking for a soruce of metal gear quotes.

-- Noname The Hero  ( Hero Talk ) This is the liberty we've won for ourselves....OUTER HAVEN 20:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, now that you bring that up, maybe we could make quote articles, such as "Metal Gear Solid quotes", "Metal Gear Solid 2 quotes", "Metal Gear Solid 3 quotes", etc.--Richardtalk 21:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm for it. However some of these quotes get repeated in different games. would it be better to put them all on one page so that you can put the different situations it was used under the same heading. Or another option could be quote pages by character. --Drawde83 00:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like Richard's idea an awful lot. --Fantomas 05:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ain't snake already dead
Due to the rapid aging ain't snakes supossed to be dead already?

- TraitorousDog
 * Yes, according to the Patriots. But he got off the tanker.  T he   . Dreadnough  T  18:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I think he's one of those people that believes that, because it's been six months since MGS4 came out, and since Snake apparently had "six months left to live", he is now officially dead. These people are of course forgetting two things:
 * 1) Naomi said Snake had six months left to live because of the mutated FOXDIE, which was destroyed thanks to the newer FOXDIE injected into him by Drebin, and
 * 2) MGS4 is set in 2014. --Fantomas 19:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Snake's death sticks
Should it be added to trivia section that he prefers cigarettes while Big Boss preferred cigars? Just wondering.
 * No, anyone that has spent any time playing the games will know that. --Drawde83 02:37, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I didn't think so. Thanks.

Snake's AKAs
I just want it to be noted that I added an overlooked AKA for Snake from MGS1, right before the second fight with Raven he refers to Snake as "Kasack." It means the same thing as "Cossack" which means: "One of a warlike, pastoral people, skillful as horsemen, inhabiting different parts of the Russian empire and furnishing valuable contingents of irregular cavalry to its armies, those of Little Russia and those of the Don forming the principal divisions." but anyway, obviously someone didn't believe me and instead of checking just went ahead and deleted it ever so graciously.


 * It was possibly I who deleted the Kasack entry, but I did give a reason for it. Snake has never been known by the name Kasack, and so is not an alias. However, since you've done a bit of research into the meaning of the word, I guess there's no harm in adding it to the trivia section. --Bluerock 13:46, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Locked?
Why can I not edit Solid Snake's page? Was there an edit war or something? Bluerock 18:14, January 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, there was. A certain IP user and Zepp900 had gotten into a fight in regards to whether Solid, Liquid, and Solidus actually appeared in Portable Ops (IP 70's reason for claiming that they appeared was because of Elisa's prophetic vision on her deathbed.). As a result, Liquid and Solidus's pages were locked as well. Liquid's page has finally been unlocked, but Solid and Solidus's pages are still locked up, and I'm waiting until they unlock it. Weedle McHairybug 18:49, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry guys. I'm lazy and forgetful. --Fantomas 19:05, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Eye color
Were Solid Snake's eyes green in MGS2? I don't think they were blue in that game. Bluerock 14:34, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't find any decent pictures right now, but they do look very green, yes. --Fantomas 16:33, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought they might be. I wonder why they changed it, then went back, as they were also blue in the MSX2 games:
 * MG1 - blue (you can just make out the pixel on his radio portrait)
 * MG2 - blue, both original appearance (based on Mel Gibson) and Shinkawa image update from rerelease
 * MGS - difficult to determine in Shinkawa's art, and also due to in-game graphics
 * Not sure about The Twin Snakes though. --Bluerock 17:18, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Solid Snake image MGS1

I think the image from MGS1 is more orginal than the twin snakes images of Snake.Kennedy 3421 23:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421
 * Both of the images are from MGS1. The file name just says "The Twin Snakes", but it's not actually from The Twin Snakes. --Fantomas 00:27, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Novel details
I don't see the problem with adding details from the novel as long as they don't contradict events established in the games. As for TTS, the game's story is identical to the original, the only things that could be seen as non-canon is the portrayal of characters in cutscenes, which were often a bit over the top. Same goes for the novel, such as some of Snake's dialogue (ugh!). --Bluerock 01:59, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

[something missing here?]

ions (such as The Twin Snakes, the comic book series, and Raymond Benson's "novels") be disallowed inclusion in this article. The content is unsubstantiated and the only arguments towards it being canon are conjecture at best with no real factual basis apart from fan speculation. The argument of "well, it doesn't contradict anything already established, so it must be correct!" is faulty logic as well. Lets try and keep some higher standards here, please. 173.88.27.222 02:02, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * conjecture? You DO realize that Hideo Kojima was the guy who is responsible for creating the series in the first place, right?! If he was directly involved with the novel (which going by the copyright date, the Acknowledgements section, as well as it saying "the official novel" in the game, he was), then it IS canon. If this isn't canon, then absolutely everything in the series isn't canon either and are standalones. Being mentioned? Conjecture! official timeline? Conjecture! From I can tell, your statements show that that means that any game isn't canon, and there is no canonicity towards anything in the game. Weedle McHairybug 02:06, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

First, calm your temper please. It's conjecture that you assume the novel is canon based on a "special thanks" addendum. You're drawing conclusions from literally no relevant information. There's no argument on the subject of in-game content because of Kojima's very direct, very clearly documented involvement in the process. His name is all over it with very specific citations. The novel, however, is one man's artistic (and occasionally loose) interpretation of a script handed to him for the purpose of adaptation. The novel was written by Raymond Benson; not Hideo Kojima. Please understand the difference. 02:19, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't forget we had the "Official" Mission Handbook. The fact is that no one can say for sure whether elements in these types of media are canon or not. That's why references are provided so that the reader can judge for themselves. Since this novel stuff is disputed it may as well be added to the behind the scenes section.--Bluerock 02:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we already have the Les Enfants Terribles event article covering stuff from the novel, as well as the fact that we have Master Miller's death in the article. Also, why would Hideo Kojima even bother helping Raymond Benson in regards to the novelization if it wasn't canon? If I were him, the novel would be riddled with countless errors for all I care, since I didn't write it and thus wouldn't matter to me if it had errors, since I never wrote it. Weedle McHairybug 02:16, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Since you want to nit-pick the subject, I could argue over the countless dialogue differences between MGS1, TTS, the comic book series, and the novel. Which lines of dialogue would you say are canon then? 173.88.27.222 02:22, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * We also have this:
 * Copyright (C) 2008 by Kojima Digital entertainment. All rights reserved. Used under authorization.
 * This would NOT have appeared if it wasn't canon. I know I wouldn't have given it the copyright if it weren't canon. Not to mention that the novelization even briefly referred to Snake nearly committing suicide in MGS4, and that definitely wasn't in the script. Heck, I doubt that the reference to Revolver Ocelot duel during Operation Snake Eater was even in the script either. So if there is any proof, this is. And another thing, at least according to Fantomas, the Novelization had more direct involvement from Hideo Kojima than TTS or the Digital Graphic Novels. Ask him if you don't believe me. He might even give you more proof. Weedle McHairybug 02:27, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No offense, but you clearly don't understand how copyrights work if you think they automatically make something canon. There's zero correlation between the legal ownership of an intellectual property and its literary continuity. Moving on, you can claim that "well, X person told me this, and you can ask them if you want" as much as you like, but that isn't considered a valid citation. Either find something that says "Hideo Kojima personally supervised the authoring of this document and confirms its canonicity" or stop editing the article based on your personal assumptions and deductions. 173.88.27.222 02:33, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, and one more thing, the way to consider it canon is if the creator had some sort of direct involvement in the work. Snake's Revenge, Ghost Babel, Ac!d, those games did NOT have Hideo Kojima working on them at all, so it is obvious as to their stance in canon. Fantomas even states its canon anyhow. Ask him if you don't believe me. I'll even link you to his talk page: User Talk:Fantomas. Fantomas, please get over here so we can finish this! Weedle McHairybug 02:36, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Kojima was both producer and supervising director for Ghost Babel, and he was producer for both AC!D games. Get your facts straight. And again, you're using faulty logic to form your argument. If the "Kojima had direct involvement" angle is your entire basis for calling the novel "canon" (which isn't a cited fact, for the record), you may as well include a segment in Naked Snake's biography about how he went on a mission to stop a bunch of monkeys in Tselinoyarsk. And again, one person's word-of-mouth "confirmation" of a detail is not a valid citation. I'm not trying to cause trouble, but you clearly don't understand how any of this works. 173.88.27.222 02:46, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

If it doesn't contradict established events, whats the problem? It's just another author expanding on some of the story details. It doesn't have to come straight from Kojima's mouth you know. Do you think he personally supervised the authoring of Portable Ops's script, and even then, how could you prove it if he did? It's officially licensed by Konami so why not add in this info? It can always be removed if future games state that things actually occurred differently. --Bluerock 02:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because that's faulty reasoning. To extrapolate, by that logic I could add a comment that Solid Snake has six toes on one foot. Because we've never seen him without his shoes on and because there's nothing in the canon that contradicts it, you may as well accept it as true. Obviously, this is an exaggerated example, but the reasoning behind it is similar. 173.88.27.222 02:46, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * ::Well, unless an official adaptation says he does have six toes then you don't just add in silly things like that. The events we are discussing are actually detailed in a source that has been officially licensed by the game developers. They don't have a problem with the book, why do you? The writer's style is not to my taste either but that doesn't mean the events described should just be ignored simply because Kojima didn't dictate them to Benson. --Bluerock 02:54, March 20, 2010 (UTC


 * You're kinda missing the point. To put it into a different perspective, if you want to include this kind of information from the novel as "canon", you'll also need to edit the MGS1 page to include the segment of the MGS1 comic where Psycho Mantis hypnotizes Snake into thinking that Master Miller showed up to help him complete his mission. You might also want to add some remarks about Snake backflipping off of missiles in The Twin Snakes while you're at it. 173.88.27.222 03:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, an easy fix to this issue would be to just include all of this kind of information into an "apocrypha" section somewhere in the page to seperate it from canonically verified information. 173.88.27.222 03:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually you're missing my point. These scenes clearly contradict the events of MGS1 and so are obviously not canon. The game's portrayal is the main story but that doesnt mean it cant be supplemented in other media.--Bluerock 03:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of sections of dialogue in the novel that contradict the script in MGS1, so how can it be considered valid research to nitpick individual elements out of a complete work that someone personally wants included in the canon? There's no problem with extracurricular supplementing of the narrative, sure, but lets not forget the simple fact that the novel was written by Raymond Benson, and that any knowledge of Kojima's involvement in the writing process is assumptive at best. 173.88.27.222 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I heard that the Novelization was written with heavy involvement form Kojima and Payton. Of course, Fantomas should also state where he found the source for that, and even link it if he has to. Plus, it was actually very close to the game by quite a large margin. The only notable difference was the Psycho Mantis fight (For obvious reasons, the Mantis fight from the game could not be adapted from the game to the Novel, as the talk about memory cards and controllers would not have translated well with the novel.) and Gray Fox's "death scene" (as he wasn't squished.). Pretty much everything else was kept as is, and they even added in a few stuff. Weedle McHairybug 03:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * You seem to "hear" a lot of stuff, but that doesn't make it factual or properly cited. Jesus Christ, hearsay is not a valid research method for a wiki. 173.88.27.222 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * ::I'm currently searching for sources, and I also have asked Fantomas to try and supply the sources in regards to the discussion when he has the chance to partake in it. I also started a topic on GameFAQs asking for the source that states that HK and Payton were heavily involved in the writing of the novel. Weedle McHairybug 03:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. 173.88.27.222 03:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Anyway, TTS is exactly the same story, its just the portrayal thats inferior to the original and non-canon. The book has to be different in some respects since its hard to get the feel of a boss battle in a book. But thats just due to the media. The events described in Snake's past is a different matter, since there's nothing analogous to it in the game.--Bluerock 03:18, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The point is that nit-picking individual elements out of an information source amounts to original research and personal deduction; two very frowned upon (and always disallowed) methods of data collection at pretty much every kind of wiki out there, and for good reason. 173.88.27.222 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is fiction, why are you babbling about data collection and such. I advise you to take a look at the Star Wars wikia page as a good example. There are varying levels of canonicity in fiction. The games are the primary canon that override all other media discussing the same event. The secondary canon is referenced only if it is not contradicted by the primary canon. This isn't real life, its just a story that has had input from many writers. --Bluerock 03:34, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The principles apply regardless of the subject matter. Like I said earlier, why don't we include an apocrypha section? That'd solve the issue right-quick. 173.88.27.222 03:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Afraid not, many articles feature information that was first revealed in the novel. And the last thing we need is another section for the article. All we need are the references in there so people can see where the info comes from. Besides, few people will understand what the word "apocrypha" means anyway. --Bluerock 03:45, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Clarity and accuracy shouldn't be sacrificed due to user ignorance. But if as many articles have information from the novel in them as you say, there's going to be a lot of work to do. 173.88.27.222 03:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's why its best just to leave it as is. The new info has caused no problems in this article. Its an aspect of Snake's past that has been elaborated on in another source. Wheter it was first given in the game or in a book is irrelevant. --Bluerock 04:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No offense, but while you might be satisfied with leaving in faulty information for the sake of convinience, I (and many other fans out there, I'm sure) am not. 173.88.27.222 04:10, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who says its faulty? That's just your opinion because you don't like the book. --Bluerock 04:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who says its faulty? That's just your opinion because you don't like the book. --Bluerock 04:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

My opinion of the book has nothing to do with it. I've given plenty of reasons why it's both faulty information and faulty reasoning for even considering it to begin with. 173.88.27.222 04:16, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * None of which are particularly convincing. You just seem to cry out TTS every now and then. You can't apply real-world research methods to different interpretations of a fictional universe. You'll just keep driving in circles.--Bluerock 04:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I've pointed out completely legitimate types of reasoning for why it shouldn't be included. Most of the counter-argument so far has been little more than the equivalent of "oh, put it in just because..." and attempts to lampshade my argument with this "oh, it's fictional so normal literary rules don't apply" crap? Come on. 173.88.27.222 04:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and besides which, the novelizations, or at least the Sons of Liberty novelization, has the Kojima seal of approval, which he wouldn't give if it was not canon or if he hadn't even had a very large hand in directing the novel. Weedle McHairybug 04:26, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Where is this "seal"? What does it say? 173.88.27.222 04:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.mishmashmagazine.com/tabid/106/itemid/673/Raymond-Bensons--Sons-of-Liberty.aspx See here. Weedle McHairybug 04:32, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be mean, but this is what I'm talking about. There's a certain level of reading comprehension that you seem to lack, as made apparent by some of your earlier replies. In this case, the author of that article isn't being literal; he's referring to the fact that it's licensed by KONAMI. 173.88.27.222 04:36, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

And, hence, is an official source.--Bluerock 04:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Copyrights and continuity are two completely different, unrelated subjects 173.88.27.222 04:43, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe so, but it is intended to be part of continuity. They licensed it so its release could coincide with MGS4 so that people new to the series could read about the story for the first game. --Bluerock 04:52, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that it's an adaptation and shouldn't be taken as gospel.173.88.27.222 04:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Nothing here can be taken as gospel. Fiction can be retconned all the time, even in the games themselves. --Bluerock 04:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, retconned by the games; by Kojima himself. Not by outside authors who can weild an artistic license. 173.88.27.222 04:56, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, about continuity. When the Novelization was being written, Metal Gear Solid 4 was still in development. Heck, even when it was published, Metal Gear Solid 4 wasn't released yet (MGS4 was released on June 12th, 2008, and the novelization had been first published on May 27th of 2008.). At a certain point in the novel, Psycho Mantis briefly references Naked Sin, which was part of the ending in Metal Gear Solid 4 (more specifically the part where Old Snake was about commit suicide by putting a gun in his mouth.). Now think about it, do you honestly think that Raymond Benson, regardless of how gifted of a writer he is, would have been able to reference a game that has yet to even be finished with development when he wrote it? The only way he could have known about it to add it in is if Kojima or Payton told him, especially considering how they most likely hadn't settled on an ending yet (For goodness sakes, they originally thought of having Snake and Otacon executed.).). Fantomas, please hurry up and give sources. Weedle McHairybug 04:56, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

That's not confirmation at all. All it suggests is that the company gave him related script documents when he was contracted to adapt the story into a novel. This kind of thing happens all the time in literature, especially with novelizations of pre-established works. 173.88.27.222 04:59, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * If they didn't think his work would be canon, they could have easily just not given him script documents or anything like that. Also, if he was contracted, that obviously means they had to have had some sort of role in it's creation, and thus, it would be canon. Canon means that the creator HAS to have input on the novelization. Weedle McHairybug 05:01, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Of course they had to give him documents; he was contracted to write an adaptation of the novel. They couldn't just tell him to go in blind without any reference material. That's just bad business sense. The fact that they gave him guidelines doesn't bloody well make it canon. Am I the only person here who actually paid attention in College English? 173.88.27.222 05:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Who are you to decide what is canon or not? There will never be an answer from Kojima on that so you may as well accept the aspects of this official novel that add to the overall story and quit whining about it.--Bluerock 05:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Pot? This is kettle. I've got some bad news. 173.88.27.222 05:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC) You what?


 * They did it with the DGN as well as Snake's Revenge. Also, they could have just shown him the games only, and not any of the documents. And I definitely doubt that their supplying documents was the reason (Need I really remind you that Snake and Otacon, during development, were originally going to turn themselves in and be executed for their crimes? Had that been in the documents supplied when he was commissioned, I doubt the Naked Sin part would have been in there either.). Weedle McHairybug 05:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

The justifications you keep trying to push keep changing getting more and more ridiculous. Your arguments are making less and less logical sense, and now you're bringing up Snake's Revenge of all things? And you're suggesting that KONAMI might have just said "Oh, go play the games and watch 20+ hours of cutscenes". Are you serious? Sorry, but multinational corporations tend to have a much more pedantic business sense than that. I'm sorry, but you clearly aren't capable of understanding any of this. 173.88.27.222 05:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, and here's the exact definition of "Canon" on Wikipedia:
 * A canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is a body of material that is considered to be "genuine" or "official", that can be directly referenced as, or as if it were, material produced by the original author or creator of a series.:Seeing how Konami and Kojima had a hand in it, as well as it being the "official" novel, that means it's canon. You can't have it be official and yet not canon by this definition. Weedle McHairybug 05:15, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Kojima didn't write it. Raymond Benson adapted the script to his own tastes and in his own style. Your argument here is void.173.88.27.222 05:18, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. We're not talking about taste or style of the autor. We're talking about the events that are written about. The same event can be written about in countless different ways but they're still all concerned with that same event.--Bluerock 05:27, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

The events that correlate aren't in question here. It's everything else. That should be obvious, so why argue otherwise? 173.88.27.222 05:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kojima also had absolutely minimal involvement in MPO and MGS4, so should we say that it was non canon as well? Weedle McHairybug 05:21, March 20, 2010 (UTC

That's an invalid comparison for two reasons. One, Kojima has stated that MPO is canon so there's zero room for questioning there. Two, Kojima was greatly involved with MGS4's development. Where did you get the impression otherwise? 05:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because by your logic, that means, since Kojima had barely any involvement with Portable Ops, then regardless if Konami officially recognized Portable Ops, in your logic, it's non-canon since he barely even made it or was involved in it. As for MGS4, there were references to it being mostly not Kojima's work, like "no place for Hideo" or how in one of the previews, it showed Kojima in a backseat role. Weedle McHairybug 05:28, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that's not the meat of my argument at all, and once again I question your reading comprehension level. If you're not going to take the time to properly read through this discussion and would prefer to knee-jerk respond with anything that sounds "right" to you, please don't bother posting at all. 173.88.27.222 05:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. In fact, I'm actually a fairly advanced reader (They tested me in the 6th grade, and this is especially notable as they had previously put me in a remedial reading class when they tested me. Also, if my reading comprehension was truly bad, I would not have graduated High School AT ALL. Heck, I wouldn't have even gone past Middle School.). And that was definitely the meat of your arguement, as you were basically saying that Hideo Kojima didn't write it so it shouldn't be considered canon. Weedle McHairybug 05:35, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but nothing you've written here so far has proven you have anything above a rudimentary understanding of what's being argued. Again, I don't mean to be insultory, but your inability to understand some of these very simple principles is proving very frustrating. Again, to elaborate, my argument that information from the novels shouldn't be included is based on a culmination of several issues that I've already stated; it's about more than just the fact that Kojima didn't write it, though that is an element of it. To be more specific, while MPO might not have been as heavily developed by Kojima as other titles, the canonicity of the game isn't in question because of the overt approval and confirmation that Kojima has given on the subject. In the case of this novel, however, there's no reaffirmation or evidence apart from hearsay and speculation. Does that help? 173.88.27.222 05:42, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why would they even commission him to try and write a Metal Gear Solid novel if it was not meant to be canon anyways? They could have easily not have requested him to make a novel, as well as his doing it out of a hobby. Weedle McHairybug 05:47, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Entertainment? Adaptations are meant to be entertaining, alternate perspectives on things we're already familiar with, based on the medium at hand. It's the same mentality as when a book is adapted into a film. Ask yourself, how often have you seen a film follow a book's original content to the letter? Also, money. 173.88.27.222 05:50, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Man, I really wish Fantomas responds soon... Anyways, in this particular case, they did follow it up to the letter, or at least came close. Weedle McHairybug 05:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

They may have followed the overall plot progression, but there are plenty of nuances and details that were completely changed or plucked out of thin air. 173.88.27.222 05:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's official material from Konami. Wether Kojima is directly behind it or not is irrelevant, as long as it's "official". Kojima probably didn't have a hand in the novel, but I doubt he hand wrote every article of the MGS4 Database either, but everything in that is taken as canon, because it's official. I'm not going to lie to you guys though, I didn't read any of the discussion above. --Fantomas 10:35, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Official doesn't mean canon, though. There are a LOT of "official" Metal Gear products that clearly aren't canon, and this should very obviously be included in that category. Like I said, the item's copyright or legal classification with Konami has absolutely nothing to do with its continuity. They're two completely different issues and I'm not sure why they're being so heavily correlated here. It's a sloppy (and more importantly, incorrect) practice. Information from the novel really shouldn't be included if we want to keep things as accurate as possible. 173.88.27.222 23:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Going by that logic, then pretty much everything from this site is non-canon, as well, so this site should be completely annihilated. We should delete everything that isn't in the games themselves, and even stuff in the games shouldn't exist either as several things are no longer canon or fit into canon. Honestly, this is staying in, and that's final. If you even attempt to try and put it back in, then I will make sure you leave. Weedle McHairybug 23:21, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, but we should delete anything where Kojima's direct involvement or approval is in question. I'm still not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding this. It's a very unbiased observation, and while you seem to just want to argue for some reason for another, I'm concerned about the quality and validity of the information actually being posted. The methods and principles I've mentioned several times already are commonly supported for the maintenance of multiple wikis across various fandoms, and there isn't a proper system of checks and balances for this material here apart from "oh, well if it was posted and konami had something to do with it...". No, that isn't how it works. Maybe that's fine in your fantasy world, but if you're not capable of adhering to more correct methods of cataloging information on a subject, I suggest you take your case somewhere else,.. like a fan-site. 173.88.27.222 23:33, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Fantomas, I'm asking that you look at this from a non-biased perspective as an administrator. Proper wiki-editing procedure commonly stipulates that there needs to be a more verified basis for citation than what's being claimed here. Please read through the discussion for yourself. The information posted isn't properly verified and we should be keeping higher standards for posting here, don't you agree? Even though it's a fandom based subject matter, there's no reason why we shouldn't hold ourselves to more strict and correct forms of information gathering. Thanks for your consideration on this issue. Hitotsu 00:08, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's officially sanctioned material from Konami, both Ryan Payton and Hideo Kojima are thanked in the book itself, which could suggest anything and it doesn't flat out contradict anything. Books extending the mythos of video games is becoming a much more frequent occurence in video games, and it wouldn't surprise me if Kojima wanted to jump on board and join in. It's an interesting extension of the mythos. I don't see what the problem is. As a wiki we are allowed to take the information any way we want. This sort of thing isn't unheard of. It just seems to me like you don't care for the novel, and want to get rid of any mention of it. --Fantomas 00:27, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

My personal opinion of the novel has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that any conclusions drawn towards it being an official addendum to the continuity rather than an adaptation are suppositions and conjecture, not facts, and it's precicely because this is a wiki that I'm so adamant about the guidelines that should be set on content and the corresponding citations. I don't mean to be insultory, but I have to ask if you've actually had experience dealing with the regulations and standards of adding content to wikipedia or other similar wikis, or if you just made one for Metal Gear because "you thought it would be a cool idea" or a similar reason, but have never really run one before? Please, take an unbiased standing on the issue. It'll serve to improve the reliability of this Wikia by leaps and bounds. 173.88.27.222 01:31, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * The part about his thanking Ryan Payton and Hideo Kojima being thanked in the book itself would not be conjecture. Saying that they were involved when there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (IE, they aren't even in the Acknowledgements section and thanked for his help, and absolutely no mention at all.) stating that they were involved (like saying the book said Snake had six toes even though not once did it even say that or even imply that.) at all IS conjecture, however. And he does have experience in regards to adding content to other wikis as he has also done edits on the Coheen and Cambria wiki. He'd also need experience at getting edits if he were to become a chief admin, anyways. Weedle McHairybug 01:50, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * You very clearly don't understand what conjecture is then. And even if you were to look up the definition, I'm fairly sure that you still wouldn't understand how it applies to the subject at hand. I really don't want to sound mean, but my god, you very obviously don't have the intellectual capacity to comprehend any of what I've been trying to explain to you over and over and over again. Please, stop trying to argue. You're only complicating things. 173.88.27.222 02:03, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know what conjecture is. From the websters dictionary. "-n. 1. The formation or expression of an opinion or theory so formed without sufficient evidence for proof. 2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; speculation; surmise. 3. Obs. the interpretation of omens. - v.t. 4. to conclude or suppose from evidence insufficient to ensure reliability. -v.i. 5. to form conjectures." The Acknowledgements section is definitely not conjecture. In order for it to be conjecture, I'd have to theorize that they had a hand in the book just because it is Metal Gear Solid, even though they were not even mentioned in the Acknowledgements section. They were mentioned in the Acknowledgements section, however. And it wasn't even mentioned as in "I'd also like to thank Hideo Kojima for creating this awesome video game series that allowed me to write this novel." (and yes, he definitely would have said something to that effect if Hideo Kojima wasn't involved, since that's one of the basic rules in writing when doing an acknowledgement.). The Acknowledgement section clearly says that he thanked them for their help and support. Let me review the synonyms of help: Advice, aid, assist, avail, balm, benefit, comfort, cooperation, corrective, cure, guidance, hand, helping hand, lift, maintenance, nourishment, remedy, service, succor, support, sustenance, use, and utility. Five of the synonyms (one of which he even uses in the Acknowledgement section) imply direct help, like that of a Parateacher to a special needs student, or a tutor to a student, for example. These are all facts. They aren't conjecture at all. Weedle McHairybug 02:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Like I said, you aren't getting it. It's conjecture to assume that a "thank these people for their help" remark is his direct overwatch on the project. "Help" is extremely vague, but you're drawing a million conclusions from it. Many people thank their family for their help and support in writing novels; that doesn't mean that their family members actively helped in the writing process. For all you know, "help" could be the transcripts he was sent for the project. You don't know. That's why it's conjecture. 173.88.27.222 02:37, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I do get conjecture. Heck, I had to use conjecture to get through a science fair once, as well as cover the Scientific method (as conjecture is especially vital for science courses.). Even if "Help" is extremely vague, "support" isn't. Here are the definitions for Support, from Webster: "v.t. 1. to bear or hold up (a load, mass, structure, part, etc.). 2. to sustain or withstand (weight, pressure, strain, etc.) without giving way. 3. to maintain (a person, family, institution, etc.) with the necessitites of existence; provide for. 4. to sustain (a person, the spirits, etc.) under trial or affliction. 5. to uphold or advocate (a person, cause, principle, etc.); back. 6. to corroborate (a statement, opinion, etc.). 7. to undergo or endure, esp. patiently; tolerate. 8. to perform with (a leading actor or performer) in a secondary role. -n 9. an act or instance of supporting. 10. the state of being supported. 11. something that serves as a foundation, prop, brace, or stay. 12. maitenance, as of a person or family, with necessaries, means, or funds. 13. a person or thing that supports, esp. financially. 14. assistance and service provided by a manufacturer, vendor, etc., to customer, esp. over the phone. 15. backup or assistance in combat. -adj. 16. (of hosiery) made with elasticized fibers that exert a degree of tension on the legs, therefore aiding circulation, relieving fatigue, etc." Now, definitions 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 16 would definitely not apply to the definition at all. Definitions 3, 4, and 13 would most likely be for his loved ones. 5. and 14. would be for Kojima and Payton. See? Not too hard, and definitely not vague when knowing the context of words. Knowing this, we also know what he meant by that statement. And thanking people for nothing is not really a good or efficient way to do this. Weedle McHairybug 03:05, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Posting a wall of text dicionary entry in a splitting-hairs-and-grasping-for-straws attempt at winning an argument to satiate your own ego doesn't make you not wrong. 173.88.27.222 03:35, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't care about winning an arguement. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd basically destroy arguements before they were even thought up, and I'd also wouldn't have to participate if you didn't try to start it. I may care about being correct, but I definitely don't care about winning an arguement. Heck, I hate arguements, and I'd rather they end, regardless of whether I even win or not. However, that definitely is a canon source, or at least an official source. And also, I'm definitely not wrong, as knowing exactly what is supposed to be said and how to phrase it is a very vital part to communication and writing. It's been taught to me by my parents, as well as my various teachers. Heck, in my first attempt at English Composition I, we were even required to bring a dictionary. And even if I did want to win an arguement (which I don't, since I hate them.) trying to resort to insults as well as dismiss clear facts as grasping for straws/split hairs as well as conjecture, as well as actually downright insulting those is not the way to win an arguement. If anything, it only proves that you aren't good at argueing. Weedle McHairybug 03:45, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

That's nice, but the fact that you have to constantly defend your intelligence and comprehension ability speaks volumes about your insecurity on the matter. 173.88.27.222 03:50, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, if I was insecure, I'd take what you said about me being dumb and incomprehensible at face value regardless of all the achievements I have done. I'm defending it because I know that I am not that, and I hate it when people try to imply that I don't, and know you stated those things. Weedle McHairybug 03:58, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. By the way, I've been watching that GameFAQs thread since earlier today and I think it's funny that even though everyone there is telling you pretty much the same thing (and making fun of you for ignoring reason in the process), you're still deluding yourself into believing your self-justified reasoning that something incorrect is actually correct. 173.88.27.222 04:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right IP. I have never looked over the "regulations and guidelines for adding information to Wikipedia", I had never run a Wiki before this one (although I've been running this Wiki for four and a half years now). Even to this day I very rarely edit other Wiki's, because I mainly can't be bothered. But that doesn't mean I don't read them. I learn everything I need to about running this wiki, from how I see others run theirs. Head on over to the Half Life Wiki article on Gordon Freeman and you'll see they source a Gamespy article, with no indication that the developers were involved in the actual article. The way I see it, this thing really isn't as big a deal as you want us to think it is. Why don't you post a link to these guidelines and I'll give them a read. --Fantomas 10:59, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, IP, I didn't ignore reason. If I did ignore reason, I would have considered all of the so called "Metal Gear related" media (like the AC!D games, Ghost Babel, Worlds of Power comic, Mesal Gear Solid, and others like that) without question, and I also would have recently stated that Castlevania and Halo were canon to Metal Gear just because they had the same creators, and if you actually READ my posts, I not only denied how they weren't canon, I even gave a very good explaination as to how they weren't canon, and I also explained that although I do believe that having the creators involved is a very big requirement to making something canon, it doesn't apply if the series in question has absolutely nothing to do with Metal Gear. I'll even post the posts:


 * AC!D 1 and 2 had a few major contradictions. Namely, AC!D 1 had Solid Snake knowing that he was a byproduct of the Les Enfants Terribles from learning it from Big Boss, even though he never ever mentioned anything about LET to Snake in Zanzibar Land. Secondly, Solid Snake looked roughly the same age he did in Metal Gear Solid, despite the fact that he was, at best a very old man suffering from Werner's Syndrome, and at worst dead of old age. Before you say "That's only Metal Gear Solid 4" the part about accelerated aging for LET byproducts was alluded to as early as Metal Gear Solid 2. AC!D 2? It's a sequel, so it shared those same plotholes as the previous game in its series. Ghost Babel also has a lot of contradictions. For one thing, Mei Ling met Snake in this game, which would not make any sense in Metal Gear Solid as it is implied in that game that they never met until the Shadow Moses Incident. They also said that Outer Heaven was in Gindra, when the "Metal Gear" manual and even the "Metal Gear" game itself stated that it was in the Republic of South Africa (more specifically 200 KM north of the Galzburg region of South Africa.). The Twin Snakes can at best be semi-canon (They did use the audio for MGS:TTS when they could have easily used the audio for MGS, or better yet, actually re-record the lines from MGS.). Not only was Mesal Gear Solid not even close to the Metal Gear concept, it wasn't even made by the same company (not Kojima Productions, not even Konami. It was a purely independent work made by Japan Studio.). Super Smash Bros Brawl is actually a different universe (the characters in these games are trophies, or in the case of SSB, dolls who are brought to life to fight against each other for the heck of it.), so there's definitely no way that would have been canon either way. I don't think Konami Krazy Racers even has an actual story mode, so there that definitely isn't canon (Yes, there aren't any contradictions to the plot, but that's because it didn't even have a plot to begin with, which really defeats the purpose.). DreamMix TV World Fighters is more similar to Super Smash Bros Brawl in that it is an alternate reality and Konami Krazy Racers in that it doesn't have an actual story mode. Boktai is also an alternate reality as well, and besides which, although he is based off him, it is also not Solid Snake (he is only credited as ??? in game). Worlds of Power also was not even created or had any involvement with Konami, Kojima Productions, or heck, any of the video games used in that serial's production companies. It also omits several facts mainly due to censorship (and in the case of MG, it unintentionally created even more questionable content by removing Snake's gun.), and besides which, the World of Power serial was based off of the NES version, something that was not done with Kojima or the other production staff's consent or watch. You see, I was able to prove that at least most of the things you cited aren't canon by the true definition. If I could do that, I would also be able to do that with the MGS novelizations if they truly weren't canon. And I didn't even mind the NES version, and I liked SSBB.


 * This was all in reference to the so called non-contradictory references in so-called Metal-Gear related material. Weedle McHairybug 12:52, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, lol, it did go on quite a bit. I guess we just can't agree since there really is no definitive answer. --Bluerock 12:25, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the novel did contradict Gray Fox's death. Liquid crushed him like a bug in the games but he dies with his body intact in the novel. Also, Otacon never told Snake that Johnny was a head technician in the games either.--70.126.138.71 13:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but thanks to Metal Gear Solid's implications towards the Genome Soldiers having their genes modified through shots (the montage detailing the creation of the Genome Soldiers under Liquid's account shows shots being issued) as well as MGS4 revealing that Johnny Sasaki is afraid of needles, it's obvious that he can't be a Genome Soldier, either. I suspect they added that part in in order to rectify why he was among the Genome Soldiers despite not being an actual Genome Soldier (then again, it's suspicious that despite being a "Genome Soldier," he didn't have any of the qualifications to be a Genome Soldier.). Plus it also hints at how he was let off the hook when the other Genome Soldiers were placed at Pease AFB, officially for treason [although it may really be because the Patriots want to do more tests on them.]. As for Gray Fox's death, I already noted that difference in the Behind the Scenes section of the article. In fact, that as well as how Snake retrieved the PAL key were the only real changes (Although I suspect that they changed the part about Snake having to kill a rat to get the PAL key for realism issues considering how that thing is far too big and too dense for a rat to eat anyways, so Gray Fox's death would probably be the only really unnecessary change.). Weedle McHairybug 13:42, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit: I also forgot to mention one thing. You said that you considered the part about the Les Enfants Terribles Project, Miller's death, as well as the Psycho Mantis Fight as being the only things in the novel that would be canon, right? Well, the Miller part wasn't in the games at all, and yet it was canon to you, so why do you not consider the part about Sasaki to be canon for not being in the games despite Miller's death technically not being shown in the games? Weedle McHairybug 15:45, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Also, Otacon never told Snake that Johnny was a head technician in the games" You're right, he didn't, but that's not a contradiction. It's foreshadowing to MGS4 when Sasaki is shown to be quite good with computers. Which is evidence for the whole "Kojima was involved in the novel" argument. --Fantomas 17:39, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * That, as well as the fact that Psycho Mantis had explicitly referred to the events of "Naked Sin" where Old Snake nearly committed Suicide. Weedle McHairybug 17:43, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I NEVER said that Johnny was not a head technician. I only said that Otacon never told Snake that Johnny was a head technician in the games. That's all.--70.126.138.71 18:10, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry if we implied that. BTW, IP, I wonder why you never considered joining a wikia? So I take it that the arguement is settled, then? Weedle McHairybug 18:12, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fantomas locked the page so the answer is yes. --70.126.138.71 19:11, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I did ask to see the posting information guidelines you mentioned earlier, but got nothing. --Fantomas 23:01, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Novel details (continued)

 * To be fair, Snake putting a gun in his mouth was shown in a trailer in 2006. That means nothing because the book came out in 2008. Hell, Psycho Mantis doesn't even mention it in the games. Also, EVA doesn't say anything about nine batches in the game. Miller doesn't say anything about serving in Vietnam either in Peace Walker. The novel is really not a credible source. The other IP is right.
 * So, anything not mentioned in the games is automatically not a credible source, eh? So I guess that means that anything mentioned in the instruction manuals for MG1, MG2, MGS, MGS2, and anything else, including the MGS4 Database must automatically not be canon, right? I mean, of the places that Big Boss was mentioned to work for in the mercenary business, the only one explicitly mentioned to be "canon" was the Green Berets (since it was explicitly stated that he was a Green Berets ingame for MGS3). How about Master Miller being third generation Japanese American, or at least having his grandparents moving to America and his being born 60 years afterwards? Not mentioned in the game at all. Snake briefly working for the CIA/FBI? Not mentioned at all in the games (and I reviewed the script). Even stuff such as previous operations in MGS1 and the New York Mirror Review and the Shocking Conspiracy behind shadow moses shouldn't be considered canon at all. Heck, maybe even discount Portable Ops and MGS2 as non-canon while we're at it, as they are barely even referenced in Peace Walker and MGS4, respectively. See what I'm getting at? That would make absolutely no sense at all, as that would mean that a lot of the things mentioned in the article should be removed as they are never stated in-game. Weedle McHairybug 17:05, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Forgetting Kojima himself for a minute (since he ain't the only writer of the games anyhow), I think we can say that EVERYONE agrees that info given "first-hand" by Kojima Productions/Konami is canon, e.g. the games, the previous story supplements, manuals, and the database (when it isn't making mistakes), except when they decide to retcon certain things in later games. The canon dispute always goes back to info that is not given directly by Konami/Kojima Productions, even though the sources containing it are officially licensed, e.g. novels, comic books, strategy guides, Twin Snakes (except very minor things like accents and certain dialogue). Rather than remove these, designate them as non-canon, or cram it all into "Behind the Scenes", we could take the previous IP's idea by making a new section, and call it "Alternate Portrayals" or something like that, instead of disregarding the info outright. Hopefully, that would satisfy everyone. We could place it between "Trivia" and "Behind the Scenes" so it's sort of the middle ground in terms of canon. -- Bluerock 18:54, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It would also get rid of the problem of having to state, "this was mentioned in X but not mentioned in y or z so may not be canon", for every single item of disputed info. -- Bluerock 19:01, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine by me, I didn't remove the information from the article. Oh, and Weedle, Snake working for the CIA was not only in mentioned in MG2's manual. It was mentioned in the database. Miller's grandparents were only mentioned in the manual but are irrelevant to the story.

http://www.msxnet.org/gtinter/Setting.htm
 * In terms of info removal, I wasn't specifically referring to you, just talking about in general. --Bluerock 20:09, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * So has Miller's Japanese heritage been retconned in Peace Walker? I noticed the article says he's 4% Japanese (1/25?), or is it supposed to be 25%?--Bluerock 20:17, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know his mother was Japanese. He mentioned that in Peace Walker. His father was American.--70.127.203.117 20:26, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, giving it some thought, maybe that line was intended to mean that, quite literally, he was born 60 years after his grandparents moved to America. By that, I mean his mom stayed behind in Japan, whileas his grandparents moved to America. It didn't mention anything about his grandparents. Weedle McHairybug 20:35, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are going to be a smartass, think of a better comeback. The MSX2 manual still counts as canon. And Miller's grandparents are irrelevant to the stories of the games but were mentioned in a manual, hence, Miller is part Japanese. It still counts. --70.127.203.117 20:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was just saying that trying to state the Novel as not being canon just because several of the things it states is not mentioned in the games at all is not really a good reason. I'm not trying to be a smartaleck, I was just trying to explain that it needs a lot more than just "it's not in the games." to not be counted as canon. Weedle McHairybug 20:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss told Zero that he was in the Green Berets in MGS3. Portable Ops was mentioned numerous times in MGS4 and the database. Photos of the game were shown near the end of the game and Zero being the founder of the patriots is also mentioned. MGS2 was mentioned numerous times too. Solidus, Sunny, Ocelot being "possessed", and Vamp walking up the pillar at the Big Shell. --70.127.203.117 20:03, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, except you (or at least some other unregistered user) said that it has to be mentioned in-game in order for it to be canon. In my mind, that means it has to be mentioned in the actual playable storyline (meaning, the game with the save file). Because of that, I see the flaws in that arguement, as the instruction manuals, in-game supplemental materials (meaning, those that aren't read in-gamestory but in one of the options in the main menu of the startup screen) also apply in that non-canon definition, as several of those things aren't stated in game. Even the MGS4 Database, outside of the errors, have stuff that are not stated in any of the actual games. And yes, I know MPO was mentioned in MGS4, but MPW barely mentioned it outside of the line Miller gives shortly before going into the flashback, which was my point, not to mention that there was a problem with MGS4 in that MGS2's Manhattan Incident event was only referenced... twice (first with Roy Campbell, and second with Ocelot when discussing GW.), and for something of that magnitude, two references would not be enough (they'd need "remember April 30th" or a memorial that is similar to 9/11 for the references to be quite adequate.). That's my issue. Weedle McHairybug 20:14, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that that argument wouldn't work, but I think he was more referring to it being from the novel rather than a direct production of Kojima/Konami. Hence, the question of its canonicity. So what are your thoughts on possibly giving the disputed info a new section, Weedle?--Bluerock 20:26, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if it stops the arguements and edit wars, why not? Weedle McHairybug 20:35, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't bother me either. --70.127.203.117 20:54, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now let's see what Fantomas thinks, then we can hopefully put this whole thing to rest. --Bluerock 20:58, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Fantomas has agreed for now so I made the change to the page to see how it looks. Feel free to remove/re-edit Cypher's involvement in Snake's childhood if it's now necessary. Also, I am sure Snake would be fluent in Russian anyway, but since only the novel mentioned it I'll put it in the new section as well. -- Bluerock 19:16, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not that I am going to suggest re-inserting info from the novel back into the main article, but didn't a KP report podcast confirm that the MGS1 Novelization was canon around the time of MGS4's development? If that's the case, that might be something worth considering. Weedle McHairybug 04:13, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Difference between Solid Snake and Naked Snake
Just by looking at them how would you tell the difference between Solid Snake and Naked Snake (MGS3) In terms appearance and personality?

Well, Solid Snake never smoked cigars. --70.126.138.71 13:48, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * ...Except for that time that Big Boss was dying from FOXDIE. There's also the fact that Naked Snake seemed a bit more optimistic and carefree compared to Solid Snake, and unlike Solid Snake, Naked Snake seemed to show some reluctance to killing enemies. Naked Snake, for obvious reasons, resembled Solid Snake, although he does have age-lines on his cheeks. According to interviews, this was deliberate in order to make Naked Snake seem more human and natural in an attempt to differentiate him from Solid Snake. Weedle McHairybug 13:54, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the more obvious differences in physical appearances is that Solid Snake has a navy blue bandanna, whereas Naked Snake wears a green one (except in SSBB, where the character model is a combination of the two, and Snake vs Monkey, where they just use Big Boss's character model for Solid Snake). --Bluerock 14:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

The obvious difference is Big Boss having a missing eye. Judging from Snake Eater and Solid Snakes artwork Big Boss has a shorter Bandana. And Big Boss has a snake shaped scar on his chest. Personality wise Big Boss never wanted to leave military life.WolfMaster 02:05, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * ^Or even if Big Boss did want to leave the military life, he at the same time needed it, similar to Gray Fox's last speech to Solid Snake in Zanzibar Land. This was also implied in Portable Ops. Besides, technically Solid Snake also in a way never wanted to leave military life (it was heavily implied in Metal Gear Solid that he enjoyed killing and was at least partially the reason for accepting being called back to duty.). Weedle McHairybug 02:15, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Snake's annoying habit
Here's something everyone notices. Why does Solid Snake repeats myself all the time? He answers a question with a question. What? his hearing isn't great? If he heard the first time why repeat the same line again? He's like a parrot who repeats over and over.
 * It's a quirk of Japanese culture. In Japan, you repeat a part of what someone says to you to show that you are paying attention. Unfortunatley it sounds odd in our cultures, because English speaking people don't do that. --Fantomas 00:06, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not distinctly Japanese, since I myself had done something similar when my Kindergarten teacher thought I was not paying attention to her due to my tendency of putting my head down/closing my eyes to focus asked me to repeat everything she said in the past five minutes, yet I responded with everything she said within the past hour. But, yeah, it's pretty much that. Weedle McHairybug 00:11, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never noticed that he repeats the same lines. --70.126.138.71 18:02, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he repeats other people. I always thought it was to emphasize important parts of the dialogue to players, didn't know about the Japanese aspect of it. --Bluerock 18:39, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more noticeable when Raiden does it. People actually complained that it was a flaw in Raiden's character, but Snake does it just as much. --Fantomas 18:42, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

The Boss
What was the real reason behind killing The Boss? Some say Zero was the mastermind behind the scenes some say it was the CIA? But what's the real truth?


 * This would be better off in The Boss's talk page, or definitely the forums, but just to answer your question, people suspected it was Zero who arranged for The Boss's death due to one of the graphic novel stills during Gene's revelation that The Boss's death was planned from the start having a shadow man who looked very similar to Major Zero in terms of the outline. However, Metal Gear Solid 4 revealed that the CIA was behind The Boss's death due to fear of her charisma. Weedle McHairybug 01:13, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

What?
Wait there's a graphic novel they made about Metal Gear? When this happen?
 * Ages ago. Please stop posting questions here, please take it to the forums. --Fantomas 11:20, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Very Well then here's
Well. I'm suprised. Very well then. If that is what you wish. I would post another question on your lousy board. In fact I'm not posting anymore question on your or any other board if that how you and your buddies which to treat someone who was only curious then find. I'm closing my account and never returning. In the words of Solid Snake, The hell with all of you. Goodbye.


 * They just said to post it on the appropriate discussion page or in the forum. This is Solid Snake's discussion page, so it should only be used for discussing topics to do with him. I'm not sure why you got so offended at the other users' suggestions. --Bluerock 20:58, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we're just giving you some advice that's all. It would be annoying for any other users who are looking through Solid Snake's discussion page only to suddenly find a bunch of questions about something else entirely. Just calm down. --Fantomas 21:29, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, what would be the point of having stuff not do do with Solid Snake on his page? Perhaps we could cut and paste those questions on their respective pages. When does Snake say "The hell with all of you." again? Agent M 16:46, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Can we please reopen the article?
It's been about a few months, maybe even half a year since this article was closed due to the flame war caused by a certain user. We really need to open it up again. Besides, I need to add in a note about what Solid Snake's role was apparently supposed to be. Weedle McHairybug 13:42, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL, more like a month and a half, Eric. Anyway, I recommend going to Fantomas's user talk page and ask him there. Cheers!--70.127.203.237 16:10, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Name
Is it possible that snake(David) is named after zero(David Oh)?--Soul reaper 05:15, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Metal Gear Solid: Rising
I wonder if Snake will make an appearance in Rising. If everyones suspicions are true that the game shows us how Raiden saved Sunny from the Patriots, I think Snake and Otacon would make appearnces in the game albeit minor.
 * They may make appearances, but don't expect Snake to actually meet Raiden in this game. Going by the conversation Snake and Raiden had and Snake's reactions to Raiden calling him, Raiden and Snake hadn't had contact since the Manhattan Incident. Weedle McHairybug 02:37, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rising probably won't be about Raiden rescuing Sunny. Raiden didn't become Cyborg Raiden until after he had already rescued her. Then again, this info comes from the Database, so who knows? --Fantomas 08:47, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Metal Gear Solid 4 Database is never worng.
The Database is canon and seeing that is of right now that lestest canon released metarial IT CAN'T BE WRONG, if you don't like something that is stated in it you can't say that it's wrong because you want it to be. So, would someone please take that entiry out of the triva?Ether101 Prime 07:05, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Taken from the MGS4 Database article on this very wiki: "The database was the source of much fan controversy when it was first released, as it contained references to several events in the Metal Gear universe previously thought to be non-canon (such as confirming that the Snatcher Project was not merely a rumor), leaving out some characters fates (such as Raikov and Python's), omitting some events in some characters lives (such as facts relating to Gray Fox's development) and even retconning/contradicting certain events itself (such as mentioning that Raiden's memories from his time fighting in wars as a child were erased by Solidus Snake). There was also some controversy over Liquid Ocelot's handling, as the database makes vague hints in some articles suggesting that Liquid's personality was in control but subsequently contradicting this information saying it was an act all along in other articles." So yeah, the Database is not very trustworthy. --Fantomas 10:55, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean "wrong" instead of "worng"? Anyway, is that good enough, Danny?--70.127.203.117 15:54, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * This may be counterintuitive due to the amount of time that elapsed, but just ignore him, IP 70 and Fantomas. I've dealt with this guy on GameFAQs and IMDb or at least read his comments, and this is the guy who claims that Big Boss was supposed to be pure, irredeemable evil who mindrapes children and is the worst person alive, and Solid Snake was a true hero, being nothing like him, and despite my citing evidence right within the MGS game itself that Solid Snake actually had some similarities to Big Boss (namely the fact that he enjoys all the killing and most likely doesn't love life as much as he claimed in MG2:SS), he dismisses these things, even when I cited Meryl, one of the more saner characters in the game and one of the protagonists. Plus, recently, he claims that Metroid Other M's depiction of Samus was the best ever including the part about becoming frozen in fear of Ridley, and despite our citing evidence on how its anything but the best (more like the exact opposite) and h including the Manga which had her explicitly stating she was no longer afraid of Ridley, he not only rejects it, but spews falsehoods about it like Adam allegedly saying that Samus was "full of shit" for saying that despite the fact that not only did Adam say that, but the closest time he actually said something like that was BEFORE she even left for Zebes, never mind re-encountering Ridley. In short, just ignore him. Weedle McHairybug 14:54, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Documents of the Making of MGS4.
So when is Kojima going to release The Documents of The Making of Metal Gear Solid 4 Gun of The Patriots? I saw it on the site. Does he plan on releasing it?

Weight
Is it just my imagination or did he put on quite a bit of weight/muscle between MGS1 and MGS2...? He doesn't look as slim as in MGS1, and looks quite a bit stockier. 86.180.153.32 16:08, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but his weight measurement was never given in any of these games, so far as I know. It may be an illusion though, seeing as he adopted that "slouched" look for MGS2, since he's supposed to have aged a bit since the Shadow Moses incident. --Bluerock 16:14, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Snake does look a somewhat different in MGS2 compared to MGS1 this is probably because of graphic change from PS1 to PS2 and also He grew a beard and his hair grew longer. Kennedy 3421 12:46, August 13, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

Bandana
Is it worth noting that Big Boss' bandana in character art for Peace Walker is grey-ish, suggesting that the bandana Snake wears could have been inherited from Big Boss? Just look at the photo of Big Boss on the Peace Walker page. Then again, in-game it's still green, so the game is sort of contradicting itself.

Clone
Alright I know that MGS4 was supposed to be Snakes last game bu I think if the make a game after it it could star snake to. I think he will be cloned in the future and be regivin the FOXIDE he was givin inMGS4 and we will play as more of a young Solid Snake. I hope so because I don't really care for Raiden.Sniperteam82308 03:13, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Genetics
Solid Snake and Naked Snake shares the same hair color, eye color, and the tone of voice and with that proof, Solid Snake has no doubt inherits 100% Naked Snake's dominant genes. It's not about the diffrence between the real world and MG world's genetics, It's about common sense. Inferior does not necessarily mean recessive even though Liquid has assumed recessive means inferior. The truth is Inferior/Superior is just a reference to it's class ranks and shouldn't be related to genetics. WFRMSF
 * You're right about dominant and recessive not being equivalent to strong and weak. But you're wrong in some of your assumptions. All of the Snakes have similar physical appearances, even Liquid (except hair color, for game design reasons; voicetones can be caused by environmental factors; and his canon eye color is unknown, though they are green I believe in MGS:TTS, just like Solid Snake's). Therefore, not all of the clones' genes were modified for recessive/dominant expression, otherwise Solid and Liquid would look completely different. --Bluerock 12:51, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are precisely that in this instance, though. It's established Big Boss is genetically superior to normal humans, so his phenotype (the traits he expresses) must be what makes him that way. Something that's recessive in an individual is not expressed (double-recessive is meaningless outside of discussing populations, since there's nothing for either allele to be recessive to), so if Big Boss' superior traits were recessive, he wouldn't actually have them himself. There is no possible way the superior clone could be the recessive one, since the project defined it's goals as "make something as much like Big Boss as possible" and the dominant traits were the ones Big Boss had. Of course, it also doesn't make sense that you'd make a double-dominant clone when a straight clone would have the same dominant-recessive allele relationships as the man himself anyway. Certainly Snake shouldn't look anything like Big Boss, but he's supposed to be the recessive clone; the message being that genes might determine your potential, but that's not the same as determining your fate. As for hair colour, theere were two evolutions of that: in the PS1 MGS1, Snake was supposed to be blond, presumably with his hair dyed dark (he has long, blond hair on the submarine, and was said to be identical to Liquid except skin tone: the "...and hair colour" was added in the Twin Snakes redub) and Shinkawa was still talking about a blond Big Boss as late as MGS2's early work. The more modern excuse is that Liquid's natural hair colour is the same as Snake's, but it was bleached blond by the sun during his time in the Middle East. Evil Tim 18:01, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is unknown how many of Big Boss' "soldier gene" based traits were expressed by Big Boss himself. For all we know, Liquid could have been superior to Big Boss himself, since Liquid might actually express more and better traits (contained in recessive genes) than Big Boss since Liquid didn't have dominant genes "blocking" his recessive "soldier genes". - Marcaurelix
 * No, we know he expressed them all, otherwise he wouldn't have been a superior soldier and LET would never have identified that he had the best possible solder genes. You're now ignoring the basic premise of MGS' plot just to speculate on a scenario it never touches on. Take your fanfic elsewhere. Evil Tim 01:34, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * First off, the one who making fanfics are you, turning Big Boss into a superhuman. Second, you don't know that Big Boss expressed them all. It's only stated by Naomi that some 60 "soldier genes" were discovered in Big Boss, but nowhere is it mentioned that he expressed them all. You're the one speculating. I only said that as far as we knew, there's a possibility that Liquid was superior to his father (I wasn't confirming anything; although I do think it's food for thought). - Marcaurelix
 * Wrong all the way, again. Big Boss is regarded as a genetically superior individual: that is the entire premise of the Les Enfants Terribles project. At the time of that project, they hadn't discovered which ones were the soldier genes; L-E-T was in the 1970s, while the Human Genome Project wasn't completed until 2003 - they couldn't possibly have done what you're claiming, they can only have gone with "whatever Big Boss expresses is the best." This defines what superior and inferior mean in its terms: the superior clone is the one like Big Boss (Liquid states this in no uncertain terms: the superior clone by the project's definition is the one who expresses the dominant traits), the inferior clone is the one not like Big Boss. There is no reason to doubt that information's factuality, therefore, since it is established by Ocelot that the inferior clone won, Snake much be the double-recessive clone. Evil Tim 09:02, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * First off, don't be condecending towards me. But you're right, the LET was in the 1970s, before the Human Genome Project and WAY BEFORE human cloning is possible. Human cloning is almost impossible today, well imagine back in the 1970s. In the game canon, sentinant AIs existed in 1974 when in real life sentinant AIs don't exist in 2010. Second, Big Boss was selected for LET because he's a WAR HERO that SAVED THE WORLD a couple of times (and because Zero has a man crush on him). They didn't know about his supposed genetic superiority until much later on (possibly in 2003). Finally, one of MGS ideas was that Liquid was wrong about his ideas on genetics (beginning with his idea on genetic determinism). Naomi even implies it in the ending. Proof of that was that the inferior clone defeats the superior clone. Liquids comments on genetics shouldn't be taken on face value. - Marcaurelix
 * No, that's not what the game tells us. They created clones of Big Boss and focused on his dominant traits because they believed his genes were what made him a superior solider: that was the entire point of the project, and I can't see how you can possibly interpret a cloning and genetic manipulation project centred on recreating the genetics of one man as anything other than proof they considered that man's genetic makeup desirable. Superior and inferior are defined in terms of what that project was trying to create (Big Boss' phenotype), they're not absolute statements. There is no reason to think that Liquid's statements on L-E-T's goals are not factual; there's plenty of bad genetics in there, certainly, but no evidence it's supposed to be taken at anything but face value.

The point of the ending is that Liquid believed his fate was determined by his "inferior" genes and allowed that to define him; he was potentially the superior soldier, but potential isn't the same thing as fate as he believed. That doesn't really change that he was the double-dominant clone of Big Boss, which is what gave him superior traits as a soldier (and he certainly is the superior soldier, considering his ability to survive surface-to-air missiles to the face somewhat exceeds Snake's and all). Evil Tim 09:36, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * First, tell how you know that Big Boss expressed all of his soldier genes (dominant and recessive) when it is never stated? He could have been a superior soldier but that does not mean that he expressed all of his soldier genes. Second, you yourself mentioned it. The human genome project was completed in 2003. They had no idea about his "superior" genes until then. They may have suspected it, but we don't know that for sure. The real reason (or the stated reason) that he was selected in LET was due to his heroic accomplishments and due to Zero obsession with him. Finally, the fact of the matter is that the LET was absurd in the first place. Why the hell would anyone intentionally try to create an inferior clone? The logical idea would be to create an exact clone or a superior clone, but why create a clone to be inferior? - Marcaurelix
 * No, they seem to have just assumed his superior skills as a soldier were the result of his genes as far as L-E-T was concerned, presumably it was run by a bunch of people who were big on eugenics or something. We don't know much of the motives or ideas behind the project, but we know the premise was that making someone who replicated Big Boss' phenotype would get them a superior soldier (because Liquid says as much); we know that the recessive clone was viewed as inferior, flawed and garbage (again, because Liquid says as much) and we're never given any reason to suppose that Big Boss was hiding some even better soldier DNA under his dominant alleles; the only way we can get to that is if we start picking and choosing which parts of Liquid's speech we accept without the game telling us they're false. Yes, LET is absurd: just cloning Big Boss would have got them what they wanted, and the single most ridiculous idea in Liquid's speech is that they needed to create "a phenotype in which all of (Big Boss') dominant genes were expressed" when dominant alleles are expressed by definition. Unfortunately, being absurd doesn't mean we aren't supposed to accept it as part of the story at face value, and in this case we very much are. Evil Tim 10:00, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * First, so essentionally you "knowledge" that Big Boss expressed all his soldier genes just an assumption without any real proof to back it up. So there is no proof that Big Boss expressed all his soldier genes. Second, in 1970s, the belief back then was probably that recessive genes are always inferior (wrongly believed). That's way the "inferior" recessive clone was sent to the UK, while the dominant clone stayed in the US. Third, the only real scrap of information that Liquid gave in MGS about genes is that Solid is the dominant and Liquid is the recessive. His belief that he is inferior seems to solely be due to this information. - Marcuarelix
 * Liquid tells us that L-E-T's goal was to reproduce Big Boss' phenotype (his expressed traits) with a double-dominant clone; this is why they determined the dominant clone was the superior one. As he puts it, the recessive clone was viewed as inferior because superior meant "like Big Boss" and inferior "not like Big Boss." We have no reason to suspect he is incorrect regarding which clone had the more desirable traits (ie, that the dominant clone was the superior one and the recessive clone the inferior one); he was wrong regarding which of them he was, as per Ocelot's later speech. Anything else requires us to discard his dialog, despite that we are never given any reason to suspect it is false; regardless of what we may think of him, Liquid is supposed to be a genius, so we can't idly discard his claims just because they don't work outside the fiction of the game.Evil Tim 11:27, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Liquid was incorrect when he said that the government extracted his father's genes when he was in his 50s. He was wrong about who was the superior clone. And he was misguided by his belief in genetic determinism. As far as we know, all of Liquid's knowledge on genetics is as accurate as the information in MGS4 database (doubtful at best). And I remember Ocelot's speech, and he didn't mention anything about who the dominant or recessive clone, only who the superior or inferior was. Finally the government created two clones, the dominante (and what they believed to be the superior) stayed in the US, and the recessive was sent to th UK. And I would like interpret your silence on my hypothesis that Big Boss may not have expressed all of his "soldier genes" (since there is no real evidence) is at least plausable. - Marcuarelix
 * No, his being wrong about two things does not mean he was wrong about everything. Liquid didn't say Big Boss was in his late fifties, the Magic Hand (later revealed to not be Liquid) said that. I've addressed your "hypothesis" several times: it's conjecture based on no evidence whatsoever and doesn't line up with the only detailled explanation of L-E-T that we're given (Liquid's). We've no reason to doubt the truth of that explanation, which states that the recessive clone was the inferior one and the dominant clone the superior one. Given that Ocelot and Sears would also be aware of this, there's no reason to believe that Ocelot's use of "inferior" means anything different to Liquid's own; ie, that the recessive clone was the one that survived. Evil Tim 13:48, November 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it was "established" that Big Boss was superior to "normal" humans. More like he possessed a superior combination of normal human traits in his phenotype that made him the ideal soldier, hence, the reason they would wish to clone him.
 * I agree with what you say on this point, Tim: When the game discusses "recessive gene expession" (an obvious paradox), they are actually referring to the expression of alleles that were recessive (i.e. not expressed) in Big Boss's phenotype. It is therefore accurate to say a clone "expresses Big Boss's recessive alleles", but it would be inaccurate to say that "the clone (in and of itself) expresses recessive alleles", which is effectively meaningless. All dominant/recessive expression must be in reference to Big Boss, since it is his phenotype upon which the concept of recessiveness/dominance is entirely based, in regards to the cloning.
 * Also, they could only have modified the clones' expression of genes for which Big Boss was heterozygous (i.e. possessing both a dominant and a recessive allele). All other gene expression must therefore be identical to Big Boss in all clones, since neither a dominant nor recessive allele would even exist. This could explain the two clones' identical appearance to one another.
 * It should also be noted that Solid and Liquid were not identical clones of Big Boss, with completely identical genomes; that was done later with Solidus. Therefore, while one of the "Twin Snakes" would indeed possess an identical phenotype to Big Boss (not just appearance), his DNA would still be different to the original, since he would also be homozygous for all of Big Boss's dominant alleles (Big Boss himself would be heterozygous for these alleles; the reason for a "dominant" allele existing in the first place).
 * It's funny that the subject of Big Boss's dominant and recessive allele expession in the clones is never once referred to EVER AGAIN after MGS1. I also wonder whether the original Japanese dialogue in MGS1 was just as confusing and erroneous as the English version.
 * --Bluerock 23:36, November 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * The idea of being genetically superior does generally bring forth unfortunate memories of Nazi eugenics, but it isn't a meaningless term if you've already established what "superior" means. For example, someone with sickle-cell anaemia is a genetically inferior long distance runner to someone without it (and in this context, you could indeed describe the recessive trait as flawed); on the other hand, someone without sickle-cell anaemia is genetically inferior if the criteria assessed is resistance to Malaria (hence why a debilitating disease is actually a survival trait in areas where Malaria is epidemic; heterozygotes have it even better, but let's not overcomplicate matters). With Big Boss, we're led to believe his specific genome was so abnormal that steps were taken to prevent the LET clones from being reproduced (ie, he was presumed to be genetically unique), so talking about "normal" humans isn't exactly uncalled for in context. Evil Tim 03:03, November 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I also feel this is an important point to make, though this is where the game starts to enter the realm of pseudo-science:
 * Liquid explains that the reason for the "inferior" clones creation, was solely as a by-product of producing the "superior" clone. He heavily implies some sort of concept, in which there is a finite number of alleles available for splitting up between the two clones' genomes. Considering that the alleles for selection would be those for which Big Boss was heterozygous, this idea could be used as the method for producing one clone with "double-dominant" alleles, and one with "double-recessive" alleles, by mixing and swapping alleles between the two. It seems unealistic but it appears that this is what is supposed to have happened, according to Liquid.
 * We've aleady established that this is entirely unnecessary for producing a clone with Big Boss's phenotype. Assuming that the above (fictional?) method would be the only way (in the story) of creating a clone displaying Big Boss's recessive traits, I would speculate that the "Twin Snakes" were merely an experiment, either:
 * to investigate whether the "inferior" one actually displayed any phenotypic traits of interest, or;
 * to investigate if the "double-dominant" clone differed in some way to an identical clone (Solidus).


 * Again its just speculation on my part. I haven't really heard any previous discussions on this supposed method of "allele distribution" between the two clones before, so I thought I would point it out just in case people might have missed it. I've also assumed that this idea doesn't exist in science, but I'm not a geneticist by trade, so I'm not sure whether there is really something in it (at least in mammalian cloning).
 * --Bluerock 13:09, November 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, we can speculate on that basis, but the in-universe information is that the double-recessive clone was a waste product of the procedure, and we have to stick with that as canon unless we get evidence to the contrary. Besides, Snake clearly isn't as tough as Big Boss, Big Boss has that whole mutant healing factor thing where he can break his legs fifty times and be right as rain as long as he ties a piece of wood to them. Evil Tim 13:22, November 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I think that the "recessive clone being the waste product" idea was just part of Liquid's deluded psyche and his inferiority complex. As for the whole "healing factor" thing, that was just for convenience in Kojima's survival gameplay. Besides, who says that Liquid or Solid aren't capable of the same feats. Remember that in MGS4, Solid is able to keep fighting and take on several PMCs all around the world while DYING from Werner Syndrome, when a normal person under those conditions couldn't be able to even stand up. - Marcaurelix


 * That's nice, but what Liquid said is canon; what you think is not canon. So Liquid wins. Evil Tim 13:49, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to answer you down here. First, it's well known that Liquid has an inferiority complex (it's not just what I think). Second, we all know that Liquid isn't a "genius" in genetics, so much of what he says about genetics is doubtful at best. Third, even though Liquid Ocelot wasn't really Liqiud, he did have all his memories due to nanotech. Forth, you still haven't put forth real evidence to support your hypothesis that Big Boss expressed all his soldier genes. Fifth, you talk about not "lining up", than answer this question: Why would the US government (the ones who put forth the LET in the first place) knowingly keep the "waste product" recessive clone (Solid) for themselves while giving the superior "dominant" clone (Liquid) to the UK? - Marcaurelix


 * Simple answer to the latter point: we don't know. It's a plot hole which isn't explained in canon, so that's all we can really say; regardless of argument, we know Snake is the inferior clone, so why the US kept him isn't at all clear. We can't just say Liquid's speech on L-E-T is wrong because he has an inferiority complex, or that he doesn't know what he's talking about; the information is presented to us as factual other than the later statement that he isn't the inferior one, so the rest of his statements stand. As for expression, we have no reason to suspect that Big Boss didn't express his own superior soldier genes, and the premise of L-E-T is that he did, so the dominant clone would be the better one. Hence, we have to surmise that he did barring any contradictory evidence. As noted, Liquid's speech is the only detailled in-canon description of the process, goals and ideas of L-E-T, so there's nothing to contradict his say on the matter. That means what he says, goes. Evil Tim 14:20, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * The closest thing to a possible explaination (which isn't even confirmed anyways) as to why they might have sent Liquid Snake to britain despite being the superior soldier was to manipulate him into thinking that Big Boss viewed him as inferior, and then the Patriots would then manipulate him into attempting to want revenge against Big Boss as part of their "insurance policy." It at least explains the reason why Liquid Snake hated Snake partially due the fact that Snake "stole his chance at revenge" when he defeated Big Boss at Zanzibar Land. There's also the novelization for Metal Gear Solid that elaborated on this. Weedle McHairybug 14:38, November 13, 2010 (UTC)