Talk:Big Boss

Considering that John Doe in English language means an unknown person, or a man with no name, I would believe in Naked Snake's name to be Jack. Snake was never allowed to reveal his real name, and therefore used name "John" or "John Doe" in every possible situation(even when talking to Paramedic!!) --Snipufin 23:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

''Another thought could be, that EVA (also of Chinese origin), may have been the surrogate mother for the the Les Infant Terribles. This is also exemplified during solid snake's briefing for the dismantling of REX. He was brought in with golden long hair a trait possibly passed down from EVA. To distinguish himself from Liquid he dyes his hair brown. Along with EVA calling herself Big Mama, there seems to be a strong association that Snake has eastern decent in him. – mint''

I'll have to find the source (I think it's in game) but big boss is part Japanese. Eva is American, the philosophers took a lot of kids from around the world so they could be used as sleeper agents within their own countries. As for the hair colour thing check this out --Drawde83 06:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I've already removed that part. --Fantomas 06:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I read what u said, and from what i gathered, at the mission briefing he does cut and dye his hair, i could be wrong, but i believe this to be true. As for EVA, she is both american and chinese decent. Her, appearance was considered when forging her into a sleeper agent since she is indistinguishable.

as for the article, the arguments seem to be unfounded. Just cuz it was so in the past doesn't make it true. Ravi, or whoever argues about genetics. the trait of brown over blonde or watever in terms of dominance doesn't exist. there is no such thing as one colour being dominantly fixed over the other, its a relative term between two different alleles. secondly, hideo states that it was a way to distinguish the two characters. He was right, if solid snake states these words in the briefing. I'm sure you can confirm or deny via youtube. I can go over this in more detail if u wish, just holla.

So even though my theory of EVA may be incomplete or compltely wrong, I do believe that snake is a natural blonde. I hope u can look into this.
 * Snake isn't naturally blonde any more. He was, but Kojima changed it for whatever reason. You're right about Snake cutting and dying his hair at the end of the mission briefing, but like that article says in The Twin Snakes it was changed as per Hideo's request. Also, even if EVA was Snake's surrogate mother, her genes would not be passed onto Snake as he is a clone of Big Boss, created from his cells. The whole point of Les Enfants Terribles was to create a clone of Big Boss, not bogged down by some one else's genes. --Fantomas 08:04, 3 June 2008


 * Well, you're sort of correct. the dyeing of his hair was changed in The Twin Snakes, but the part about his cutting it was kept as is (I saw the briefing videos that were with the Twin Snakes' graphics, so I know what I'm talking about.) Weedle McHairybug 17:52, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

YA I GUESS UR RITE, I DIDNT' THINK ABOUT THE CLONING ASPECT. IT MAKES SENSE. BUT BECAUSE THE PROJECT WAS IN THE 70'S CLONING WASN'T PERFECT. BUT EVEN THAT SEEMS A BIT OF READING TOO MUCH INTO IT. YA, I HAD NO IDEA THAT HIDEO ADMITTED TO GOOFING UP. THAT JUST COMPLETELY DEBUNKS MY THEORY. NOW I'M INTERESTED IN EVA'S PARTICIPATION IN ALL THIS.(UTC)


 * Some people here are clearly not understanding the way that cloning works. Snake is a clone of Big Boss, and Big Boss alone (although he was tampered with slightly when they tried to separate the superior genes into Liquid and the inferrior genes into Solid (which Liquid misunderstands as a difference between dominant and recessive). So with that asside, Solid is 100% made from Big Boss. Eva had absolutely no effect on how Solid turned out, she simply provided the womb in which the tampered-with-solid-snake-fetus would develop. When scientists clone, you dont just toss someone in a machine and then POOF, an exact replica comes out. Clones are grown and born in exactly the same way as normal animals, the only difference being that the clone only has genes from one source instead of two parents. The part about snake being part japanese is partially true because Big Boss has some japanese lineage (1/2 or 1/4 or something). Raven's "prophecy" that snake has blood from Asia refers to the egg that was provided to create him (which was taken from an Asian donor... maybe japanese, I don't remember, but it's in a cutscene in MGS4). The egg did not provide any genes, it simply served as a vessel for Snake to be grown in the womb. TheDigitalMonk 05:48, January 26, 2010 (UTC)



brawl
"Also, his Naked Snake camouflage suit appears as one of the color swaps for Solid Snake (given that Snake's look in this game seems to draw directly from Naked Snake's design)."

not true! his SSMB design is almost exactly from Metal Gear Solid 2, even the grenade launcher in his final smash.

Actually, if you look carefully at his face, he looks more like Naked Snake then Solid Snake. That's what that is referring too. --Fantomas 17:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

that's just because of the upgrade in graphical detail which as it's know the Wii is more powerful then the PS2 and able to render MGS3 snake

Snake has all recessive genes, not dominant. But that's not important because he's a clone so he should look like him. You're pretty much right with the rest of that though (though I'm not sure if I agree that Snake is skinnier, but whatever!) --Fantomas 11:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No, Snake has all the dominant genes, Liquid has the recessive(which is why he has blond hair). It just turns out that the recessive genes were 'superior' and the dominant genes 'inferior'. Also Snake never dyed his hair in MGS1, he just cut it. he clearly states this in the MGS1 breifing.

The above is wrong: see Talk:Les_Enfants_Terribles. Evil Tim 08:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Snake has Big Boss' dominante genes and Liquid has the recessive genes. But Snakes dominante genes are inferior. Marcaurelix


 * Actually, it is never clearly established which Snake has the dominant or recessive genes. Although, Ocelot reveals that Solid was actually the inferior one, he never explains what this means in regards to gene expression. Liquid clearly felt that recessive was equivalent to inferior, though this of coure isn't accurate. So its anyone's guess really, but either way, the point is that who had what genes didn't matter in the end. --Bluerock 18:44, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

No, Solid wasn't the inferior one. Yes, he stated it to Snake, but Big Boss had lied to Liquid to make him fight harder to prove he WASN'T. Benfen 15:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * "No, Solid wasn't the inferior one." Uh, you mean Liquid, right? --Bluerock 17:51, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss and his Sons.
Why does the young Snake looks like young Big Boss but Old Snake doesn't look like Big Boss? But Solidus really looks like the old Big Boss, and again Old Snake doesn't look like Solidus. And Snake and Liquid doesn't look alike and I'm not talking about their hair color or skin color, I'm talking about facial features and why does Solidus looks older than Liquid and Snake?. Here's a diagram:


 * Solid Snake ≠ Liquid Snake
 * Solid Snake = Naked Snake
 * Solid Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
 * Liquid Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
 * Old Snake ≠ Big Boss
 * Old Snake ≠ Solidus Snake
 * Solidus Snake = Big Boss


 * (=) is "Looks like"
 * (≠) is "Doesn't look like"
 * (Naked Snake) is "Big Boss(young)"

Cgs93 19:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)Cgs93


 * Doesn't it have something to do with the fact that Solidus is the most direct clone? He was infused with both dominant and recessive genes, while Solid and Liquid were both created from dominant and recessive separately. That would mean that he would look nearly identical to Big Boss while Solid and Liquid would look only slightly like Big Boss. I'm just guessing.


 * : I'm sorry to join and add an information here but I can't stay Silent (I'm not logged and I don't have any account yet)

-Yes Liquid dosen't look like Solid BUT let me remind you that officialy, they have thesame face, as Campbell said in MGS1, plus the fact Meryl 1st thought Snake was liquid, it means they should have the same face.

-Old Snake dosen't look like solidus, but Solidus isn't old, he just die his hair and beard white to look like big boss.

-Liquid Ocelot looks like an older liquid snake

-About Solid Snake's hair in the briefing mission, I personaly think it's just a negative effect colour ! Remember on the first Metal Gear games, Snake's got dark hair + in the brieffing, his skin is sort of dark/red, but is perfectly white in game.

i know this is an old post but someones gotta say it solidus did NOT dye his hair, he was made to age even faster than his brothers also if you look at Mount Snakemore in MGS4 solidus does look quite similar to old snake and finally Liquid Ocelot doesn't look like an older liquid because its not his body User:Soul reaper

MGS4 big boss wasn't the real big boss
....where's the scaring from him being burned to "death" in metal gear 2? where's the snatcher organs? I think either the real one was actually on the volta because really think about it no scarring and not one trace of the snatcher organs he's perfectly fine even for an 80 year old thought he looks like he's still 60
 * Were you not paying attention? Big Boss says he was rebuilt using parts from Liquid and Solidus' bodies. That's why even though it's Solidus body during Act III, he looks all messed up and half his body is missing, because he was used to rebuild Big Boss. --Fantomas 16:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Easily A LIE fantomas you got to remember how many times we were lied to in MGS2 let alone MGS4 for the last nearly 7 years before MGS4 we thought liquid was still alive in ocelot's right arm. Big Boss, the man who we saw kill Zero, had no visible scarring on his body from burns or no visible sign of snatcher organs and don't tell me MG2:Solid Snake was not canon because it's been said many times about Outer heaven and Zanzibar Land being apart of the canon timeline. anyway it's kind of creepy how instead of the old man from the end of MGS4 we saw we get that corpse as the face camo of big boss.67.180.225.161 01:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I believe the whole Snatcher Organs thing isn't canon anymore as all references to it were removed from the re-release of Metal Gear 2. I don't know why it's mentioned in the Database, but the database is pretty hit and miss on some of these issues. But simply jumping to the conclusion that it was a lie, is frankly, incredibly stupid. What would be the point of that? --Fantomas 01:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The "corpse" is missing the wrong eye, too. Do you really think that someone moved Big Boss's remaining eye and removed his snatcher organs assuming they're canon (you "can't see them" on the "corpse" either) as part of an elaborate attempt to make Snake believe that Big Boss was still alive, just so they could kill him off before his very eyes? What possible purpose could this serve? It's way more elaborate than the given explanation (which, by the way, fully explains everything you're questioning), and makes absolutely no sense. Occam's razor, dude. - Kuukai2 04:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

it wasn't his corpse try playing the game before mothing off andf making your self look stupid it was solidus's corps as in his son from mgs2. User:Captain-One

Actually, I'm not sure if the Snatcher reference was even canon to begin with. They never said he actually got them, just that he was rumored to have them (which, other than an in-joke to Snatchers, was just that. A rumor.)

Anything said in the game is usually Canon unless reversed/revised in game or by the creators however the PS2 versions(which I guess would be rewritten to fit the MGS time line), but it might not be you never know anyway some one said the used parts from liquid and Solidus to repair the real big boss. I remember them saying they used parts from those two to make the dummy body but not to fix the real thing. Which makes me question if that was the real big boss, especially with the end of Peace Walkers trailer with the 4 snakes(all looked like big boss during the 70's and Kojima the team aren't talking)-76.21.106.232 04:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

-=Time to clear up somethings=- "we were lied to in MGS2 let alone MGS4 for the last nearly 7 years before MGS4 we thought liquid was still alive in ocelot's right arm." False. Liquid WAS taking over ocelot during the events of MGS2. Sometime between MGS2 and MGS4, Ocelot got the arm replaced with a mechanical one (as displayed in the final fight of MGS4, notice how different the arm looks). So during MGS4, it's ocelot preteding to be liquid. During MGS2, it's a legitimate struggle. "...especially with the end of Peace Walkers trailer with the 4 snakes(all looked like big boss during the 70's and Kojima the team aren't talking)" I'll confidently bet you $100 that the 4 snakes we saw have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline and were just there in the trailer to demonstrate how co-op is a part of the game. --TheDigitalMonk

Mother
Why don'y u guys put that Big Boss's mother was a japanese woman? EVA told that to Snake when they first met.
 * What? --Fantomas 00:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry man it was a mistake EVA was referring to a another person.
 * Yeah, she was talking about Solid Snake, not Naked Snake/Big Boss. Hence my confusion. --Fantomas 21:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

She's Chinese... Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 04:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No EVA's chinese, but is only the surrogate mother - she just carried the egg. She has no blood relation whatsoever to liquid or solid snake, despit ehow she made it seem in Act 3. Their true 'mother' was the japansese assistant of Dr Clark, as mentioned by EVA in act 3.

Also, about Big Boss, it was actually stated in his bio for the MGS1 strategy guide that his parents were in fact japanese and he suffered prejudice after the second world war because of this.. I doubt the canonicity of this now though due to the fact that Big Boss's age was changed substantially in MGS3.

=John NOT Jack= Who the f--- keeps changing his name to Jack? 22:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

His name is Jack, he's only joking when he says his name is John to Para-Medic.. Remember when they said they couldn't reveal their real names over radio? Why they hell would he tell her his real name ? She also didn't say her real name. Jane/John Doe's are unidentified female/male bodies. Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 04:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I honestly find it hard to believe how ignorant people are on this topic even though they debate it so vigorously. So let me just set the record using words everyone will understand: JOHN AND JACK ARE THE SAME NAME, JACK IS JUST A NICKNAME FOR THE NAME JOHN! Yeah, you know how another name for Richard is :"Dick"? Or another name for William is "Bill"? Yeah, same concept. Hell even John F. Kennedy was called "Jack" by his friends. So with that in mind, Big Boss's proper real name is "John" while Jack is his nickname. -66.227.140.64 06:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have been away for too long. His name is John Doe. It was confirmed in "R" (a limited edition booklet released detailing the making of MGS3). MGS4 backs this up with the head AI being named JD. The IP is absolutely right! --Fantomas 10:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I knew that Jack was a nickname for John (its also a name by itself though), but dear God. That's the stupidest thing ever. Why does his name have to be John Doe? Goddammit...


 * I think its awesome that his real name's actually John Doe. It further adds to the mystique surrounding the character. Everything about Big Boss is pure badass now; the haircut, the goatee, the eyepatch, the trenchcoat and uniform, and now the name. He really is an enigma - extroadinary combat skills that led to people calling him the 'greatest soldier that ever lived' and a mysterious name that is usually used for unidentified bodies.

..But, why would he tell Para-Medic if it where his real name..? She didn't tell him hers... This is so confusing.

..Its still stupid.Sniper Wolf - FOXHOUND 21:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I had found some site that presumably had the "actual" names of Zero, Sigint, and Para-Medic. I am NPT sure if the site's info was genuine, and I am sorry to say that I forgot what the site's address was...but I just wanted to share that the information is out there (at least it SHOULD be there...)User:The Sorrow Puppet 9:27, 6 February 2009


 * Well we pretty much know their real names anyway; Zero is David Oh, SIGINT is Donald Anderson and Para-Medic's surname is Clark(we don't know her first name).

Hey guys, ever look closely at the names of the targets in virtual range? Their names are all: John Doe. PSYCHOFYRE

Founded Zanzibar Land?
The intro section of this article states that Big Boss "founded Zanzibar Land". I'm pretty sure that this is not true. From what I remember, unlike Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land was it's own nation before Big Boss came along. All he did was unite Zanzibar Land's inhabitants and turned the whole country into a military state that went at war with its neighboring countries and eventually became a world power. This should probably be corrected. -66.227.140.64 06:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, I don't seem to recall the game actually confirming it one way or the other. I'll have to check again. --Fantomas 10:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The closest he really came to in terms of "founding" Zanzibar Land was the fact that he made it into a nation shortly after helping it gain independence from the USSR/Russian Federation. Other than that, he never really "found" Zanzibar Land.

Big Boss's exploits in the 70/80s
I think important events in Big Boss's backstory should be added here as they help you to further understand his character. I'm specifically thinking of his 'mercenary years' in the 70/80s (after he left the patriots) when he became a minor celebrity for his involvement in many african civil wars and regional conflicts. During this time he was seen as a hero by the masses as he only accepted contracts where a nations liberty was at stake(foreshadowing the creation of Outer Heaven; the symbol of his belief in absoloute freedom from governments and politicians and of course, The Patriots). Also its because of his amazing exploits during this period that he became known as a 'legendary mercenary' and 'greatest soldier of the 20th century'.

There should also be a personality section like the solid snake article has. Big Boss is a complex character and I think his motives, actions, beliefs etc should all be explained as many now mistakingly see him as the overarching hero in the series, when in reality he's a tragic hero/anti-hero at best with his actions and morals being far from admirable. His aim for a 'perfect world' of endless warfare could have been even worse than Zero's world of total control if he'd succeeded in his coup d'etat. The fact is getting rid of the patritos was not his only intention, he wanted soldiers to be able to 'like they should' even if meant plunging the world into anarchy and chaos. The guy was clearly unhinged by MG2:Solid Snake.


 * Yeah, though it's later revealed that he never intended for Metal Gear to start World War III (Most likely the Patriots made that up as an excuse to keep control), in fact, if anything, he intended for Metal Gear to be a deterrent/defense system (Ironically, what Metal Gear REX was deceptively labelled as to trick Hal Emmerich to work on it without knowing about the truth of it's purpose.). Besides, technically, Solid Snake wasn't really a "hero" (heck, he even said he wasn't a hero.), so everyone is technically an "Anti-hero".

Instructor comment?
before this gets added again could someone provide a source for this? I'd like this sorted out. --Drawde83 20:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"NEXT" Big Boss "look-alike" pic
I do not think that pic that been showing on the NEXT site is Big Boss, if you look at the eye color of the NEXT man, it is blue, and Big Boss' eye color in MGS 4 was clearly brown.
 * You're absolutely right. However, I thought Big Boss' eyes in MGS3 were blue? --Fantomas 20:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly, Volgin even told The Boss that he didn't "like those blue eyes of him."


 * in MGS4 he was rebuilt from parts of liquid and solidus. Maybe one of them had brown eyes? --Drawde83 22:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's official that the Big Boss look-alike pic from the Next site is indeed Big Boss, and not a clone (well, canonically-speaking, that is. There is multiple Big Bosses in the trailer, but that was advertizing a Multiplayer mode that's probably not canon). It's his depiction in the new game "Peace Walker". Also, since the "Militares non Frontires" organization he leads is supposed to be the prototype for Outer Heaven, I moved the statement about using the funds created by Gene to create the Outer Heaven base AFTER the Peace Walker section instead of before for timeline reasons (If the "Militares non Frontires" organization is supposed to be the prototype for Outer Heaven, then, logically, the Outer Heaven base being created comes after.).
 * Just an offhand note, it may be possible that the change in eye color is artistic and non-cannonical, suggesting that Big Boss's noble and pure persona has been altered, and he is no longer as young and innocent as he once was... but then again maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see. TheDigitalMonk 05:53, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's interesting you should mention the change in eye colour as he's not the first character to have this happen. Roses's eyes change colour but the reason for that is revealed in MGS2 and Meryl's eyes change colour.User:Soul reaper


 * Kojima doesn't really understand cloning either. If Snake is a clone of Big Boss, then of course he has some Japanese in him (since Big Boss has on various occasions been known as a third-generation Japanese-American). The whole "donor egg from a Japanese assistant" story is not only redundant, but also inaccurate when one considers that none of the Japanese assistant's DNA would be in Snake anyway. Bluerock 14:43, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

How was Big Boss's DNA the key to the system?
From what I understand, Liquid needed someone who hadn't been plugged into the system like himself, his brother Snake, and his father Big Boss, the pure source. He would plugged in his DNA into the system which caused the incident in the Middle East but the Patriots marked it on a blacklist so it couldn't be used again, but then in South America he used Snake's DNA and it worked because their DNA isn't 100% indenticle which means it was on the blacklist but still able to get past security, but it didn't work because they needed the pure source from Big Boss. So when they plugged Big Boss's DNA into the system it was able to slip past security because it was already on the blacklist giving Liquid control of the system. Is that right?
 * I always thought it was because Big Boss was the "idol" of the Patriots, and his DNA was set up as the key because of how important he was. It should be noted, however, that it was actually Solidus' DNA that allowed Liquid access to the system in the end of Act 3.--Fantomas 09:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Can we please take this off of protection mode?
We kinda need to edit the article to give what we currently know about his involvement in the Peace Walker mission from the trailers and especially the Demo. I mean, the Peace Walker seems to be severely under-developed, especially in regards to the fact that it's believed that the mysterious armed force invading Costa Rica is of CIA origin (in fact, the only real change is that the section now identifies Galvez and Paz as the clients who asked for Militaires Sans Frontires). However, I cannot make these edits due to it being protected, so can you please remove it so I can at least try to implement these changes?


 * Fantomas refuses to accept the fact that Big Boss's last name is NOT Doe. Even the Database made it clear that Big Boss' last name is NOT Doe. But Fantomas is too stubborn to be reasonable and is too slow to tell the difference between a joke and a truthful comment. Because of that, he locked the page. --72.186.96.252 16:19, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Big Boss says it himself to Para-Medic in MGS3 (and later says his name is John to Ocelot), and it was also confirmed in Book R, which came with the special edition of MGS3. The head AI of the Patriots is also called JD (which EVA remarks is short for John Doe) which we can easily assume was named after Big Boss as he was a "messiah" figure for the organization. The database simply saying John is not substantial enough evidence for a counter-argument due to the database's reputation as being slightly contradictory, and the fact that it does not state that his name is not Doe, it just fails to mention it. If it provided contradictory information instead of just failing to mention it, you would have a much stronger case for a counter argument. --Fantomas 23:03, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's called a JOKE. Paramedic then says that her name is Jane Doe. We all know that that is false. Big Boss' name being John is called a COINCIDENCE. The AI is called John Doe because it's basically a representation of being unknown and anonymous. That R book is also unreliable. Were you in Special Ed when you were a child? Is your IQ 70? The answer to both questions must be yes since you can't even tell the difference between a joke and a serious comment.

And here is the Database' reference to John Doe and Jane Doe. Do you see Big Boss and Pamaramedic being mentioned, my slow friend?

http://natmal.net/mgsdb/?enc&id=455 http://natmal.net/mgsdb/?enc&id=454

--72.186.96.252 14:09, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * And of course, resorting to personal attacks because you can't handle a basic argument, and writing off fair evidence just because you refuse to believe it as true. This is why we can't have dicussions with you, because you believe that you are right no matter what anyone else says. --Fantomas 14:17, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course we can't have dicussions. Discussions on the other hand is something we can do. And you believe you are right no matter what anyone else says. You are intransigent --72.186.96.252 15:27, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * See what I mean? All you do is poke fun at people. You can't help yourself. One small simple spelling mistake and you have to point it out like that person is an idiot. And I am certainly not intransigent, as I have on several occassions provided means to make everyone happy, such as moving topics of debate to the trivia section to highlight how divided people are on certain matters, and even on the Big Boss article itself I created an entire new section to show how his name is still a matter of debate. Stop chucking big words around to make youself look smart. --Fantomas 17:13, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Although I think the flaming is quite a bit silly here, I do have to agree that Big Boss's real name can NOT be confirmed as John Doe and here's why. We have three instances in which the name John Doe appears. Firstly, Naked Snake tells Para-Medic that his name is John Doe. When he says this, he is most likely joking because he's reluctant to tell Para-Medic his real name. The name "John Doe" is the exact opposite of a real name because it's really a dignified way of saying "Anonymous." The joke is that Para-Medic wants to know Naked Snake's real name, so instead of just saying "no," he makes a joke out of it by replacing his real last name, whatever it may be, with "Doe," a comical way of saying "sorry Para-Medic, I'm not telling you my real name right now." Para-Medic then plays on the joke by saying that her name is Jane Doe (which we know it's not, because her last name is Clark). Therefore, for the same reason that Para-Medic's name is not "Jane Doe," Big Boss's name can not be concluded to be "John Doe" by that particular call. The second instance in which we see the name John Doe pop up is the king of the Patriot AIs. This is most likely once again a dry joke because the patriots are in fact no one. They are nothing more than a series of computer programs, and therefore, they are simply a nameless, lifeless entity: John Doe. Now, for artistic purposes, it's highly possible that Kojima chose to associate JD with Naked Snake, but this can not be used as a definitive conclusion that Naked Snake's real name was John Doe. The third and final time in which we hear John Doe in the metal gear universe is in the R book. This book is however, an unreliable source of information. It's a very obscure document that was most likely not compiled by Kojima himself. In all honesty, the reason that Big Boss's name is listed as John Doe is probably because one of the Japanese developers who was working on the book probably did not understand the cultural joke that Snake made with Para-Medic (since I believe the name John Doe is not used for anonymous people in Japan). The developer probably did not understand this cultural joke and assumed that Naked Snake was serious when he said his name was John Doe, and then proceeded to put this false piece of information in an obscure document that was probably not thoroughly inspected by Kojima himself. So with that being said, I would like to request that Fantomas unlock the Big Boss page. I understand that you probably still accept that Big Boss's name is John Doe, and that's fine as an opinion or personal conjecture, but the truth about Big Boss's name is currently too ambiguous for a single definitive answer to exist. I would like to remind you that the purpose of a wiki is not to present a single point of view, but to rather encompass all legitimate takes on an argument. The proper solution to this situation would be to list "John/Jack" as the name, and then directly beneath it, list "John Doe (Possible)." This way, in the nature of a wiki, both leading arguments are represented, as both have legitimate arguments. Also, locking the page for that one specific reason makes it hard to fix other parts of the article that may be misleading or even incorrect. I'm not saying that you have to accept that Big Boss's name is not John Doe, but you do need to accept that the answer is not definitive, and that a solid argument can be presented that suggests that his last name is unknown (as I have shown above). As long as the issue is unsettled, both sides should be represented, so please unlock this page.--TheDigitalmonk 07:30, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * See IP? This is how you structure a legitimate argument. Although I'm not entirely comfortable with you just assuming Book R is probably not a reliable source of information with no real evidence to suggest that it isn't. The fact that it comes from Kojima Productions, and doesn't contradict anything we already know makes it reliable enough. Although I am considering striking it off the list of sources for John Doe as I can't find a decent translation of it anywhere. Another thing you need to understand in my locking of the page: the IP above is incredibly stubborn, and once openly admitted that he has a tendency to remove things from pages repeatedly purely to annoy me. It can be very frustrating. --Fantomas 15:30, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * On a related note, I can distinctly remember Big Boss being referred to as John Doe way before the release of MGS3, perhaps even during the time of the MSX2 releases, but I can't for the life of me think where I could have possibly seen this. If anyone knows of this source, I think it could possibly help settle the whole debate. I'm 99% sure of this, as I can remember at the time thinking then that it was a strange name to give Big Boss.--Bluerock 15:49, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I printed out the MSX2 manual for Metal Gear, and I read through the Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake manual online, so I can confirm that, at least in those sources, they never identified Big Boss's name as "John Doe." However, I don't have the official missions handbook, so maybe you saw it in that. And Digital Monk does have a point, the John Doe conversation was probably intended to be a joke. Other than the fact that Paramedic's name is actually Dr. Clark, not "Jane Doe," the term "Jane Doe" is a term used for a female anonymous soldier/individual (just as "John Doe" is the masculine term for an unidentified soldier/individual.). JD's name was also intended to be a reference to the inevitable fact that the Patriots are "no one" (As Major Zero had decided to let machines carry out his will after his eventual death.). As for this "R" book, I have come across some sites where, despite it being official works (and thus, virtually infallable), the info is quite flawed (IE, Pokemon.com and some of its information). Of course, I'm not going to deny that it's a reliable source, just that we need to take it with a grain of salt, just in case. Weedle McHairybug 19:18, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that it is unlikely that his actual surname is Doe. You're also right about it not saying in the available translations of the MSX2 manuals. But the possible fact that Big Boss's name was stated as such, even before the production of MGS3, would lead me to think that it can't just be some unofficial source that stated this. Upon first playing MGS3, the point at which he stated his name as John Doe surprised me, as it made me think back to this mysterious source that I had seen a while back, and was thinking "Wow, are they actually going to make this his real name?" Anyway, for all I know I could be talking complete nonsense, but I'm so sure of it that it's really doing my head in! I hope at least some other person on the wiki knows a bit more about it. Or you could just dismiss me as a raving madman, lol. --Bluerock 11:33, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Affiliations
Are we certain that he was affiliated with all these groups before Portable Ops? -- Bluerock 18:32, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the way the article was written before I implemented the Affiliations section with those groups seemed to imply that he was affiliated with them before Portable Ops. Of course, there may also be that chance that he also did those missions both before and after Portable Ops.) Weedle McHairybug 18:38, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, not that I necessarily object to your decision to have the whole Vietnam/70 missions thing be after the Les Enfants Terribles event, but there is some difficulty for that to exist in there (I know that Big Boss is pretty much legendary, but I'm pretty sure that even he would have some difficulty in completing 70 Vietnam War related missions in less than a year (since 1973 is the year where the United States began deporting their armed forces from Vietnam.). Maybe we should place some of the info relating to Vietnam before Portable Ops (since that is still technically before Big Boss became a Mercenary in proper), and place the other half afterwards, saying that after the war had ended, he completed over 70 missions (as it never specified the time range). Weedle McHairybug 04:19, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I put the missions after portable ops and les enfants terribles because this is what was stated in the mgs4 database. Since the database was released before peace walker was announced, there is only mention of him becoming a mercenary afterwards and no specific details, except for the conflicts in Africa (rhodesia and mozambique). The whole 'over 70 missions' thing comes from the MG2 manual, though looking more closely at it, the number is meant to represent the missions he completed by at least the 1980s, so I will alter the info a little to reflect this. -- Bluerock 09:58, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Help!
Really need help resetting the article to an earlier edit as someone screwed it right up! --Bluerock 11:46, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tried to fix but really stumped now. Thanks a lot anonymous contributors! --Bluerock 12:57, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did that do it? --Fantomas 13:03, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems to have done the trick, but I don't really understand how it got in such a state in the first place. --Bluerock 13:13, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Is there a way to stop anonymous users from editing Big Boss' page? Someone keeps putting references to disgusting things and writes about Big Boss' "parts"! It's just getting seriously disturbing! The vandalism was made by 163.153.186.6, some stupid anonymous user. - Agent M 09:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * It happened once. I looked over the history for the Big Boss page and this is the first time it has happened in a while. Our first action when something like this happens is to block the user. Looking at the "block log" for that particular IP, I already did that. If it's a constant problem we'll protect the page, but spammers come and go, it's nothing to worry about at this stage. --Fantomas 12:12, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Appearances?
Concerning Big Boss's prominent role in the plot for MGS, I'm one of the proponents of the argument that the 'appearances' section of the info box should be just for physical appearances only. --Bluerock 17:24, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's complicated, but I think I may need to re-word it to something other than "Appears In". For instance, I actually think Dr. Madnar does deserve MGS4 mentioned in his "Appears In" because he does seem somewhat important to the games events, but the Snake's don't deserve MPO mentioned because they don't really appear or have any bearing on what's going on.... I'm not sure how to approach it. I guess we could just go with the whole "if the don't physically appear than we don't mention them" idea, as it does seem like the easiest option in my opinion. --Fantomas 18:53, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's a bit tricky. Regarding Madnar, he at least physically did something within the plot and events of MGS4 (albeit, behind the scenes), whereas Big Boss is still just a semi-conscious biomort at the time of MGS, whose actions have no bearing on the plot. --Bluerock 19:04, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, unlike his cameo or reference or whatever in MGS2, in MGS, appearance or not, he was technically responsible for the formation of the Genome Army, and his body was pretty much the main plotpoint (seeing how his body was the ransom to prevent a full-scale nuclear strike from REX during the Shadow Moses Revolt, and the nuclear threat was a pretty big plotpoint.), so at least in that regard, he did something within the plot. It may have not been physically, but still, at least it's better than the reference to Volgin in MPO, Big Boss in MGS2, and the reference to the Les Enfants Terribles project in MPO. Weedle McHairybug 19:28, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, on my logic I guess Big Boss contributed to the event by simply being. --Bluerock 19:44, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Boss contributed to the events of Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4 by simply "being" too. --70.126.138.212 22:20, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're somewhat right. The main difference would be that Big Boss was actually alive and that he is a main part of the plot from start to finish. The Boss had been long dead by then, and is only mentioned at the end of Act 3 in MGS4. Also, she is never mentioned in the original games despite being the main reason behind Big Boss's actions. Anyways, like I said at the start, I do think the 'Appearances' should mean physical appearances only. --Bluerock 22:54, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Japanese/World War II?
Does anyone know whether it is confirmed or not whether Big Boss is a third-generation Japanese-American? I seem to recall coming across this info several times throughout the games, but its non-inclusion in the article seems to suggest its canonicity is disputed. It was my belief that he was always meant to be of Japanese descent. I'm also aware that it is obviously meant to make the character more appealing to the Japanese audience, but just wondering why no one has mentioned it.

By the way, I was annoyed when Kojima decided that the fertilized eggs from which the Les Enfants Terribles were born, came from a Japanese woman, to explain Vulcan Raven's comments to Solid Snake, regarding him having "blood from the east". Being a clone of Big Boss, he would of course have some Japanese blood in him, and the entire Japanese fertilized egg story is just redundant and inconsistent in terms of story. --Bluerock 10:54, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the Japanese part, but I think that the part where Big Boss lied about his age in order to be drafted into the military is definitely canon, making at least his bio in the Metal Gear Solid Official Mission Handbook canon as well. (Unless I'm extremely missing the pitch here, the age to draft into the military during World War II was about 18-21 years of age.). I mean, Kojima stated that he was in his thirties when Snake Eater happened, Metal Gear Solid 4 implies that Big Boss was born during the 1930s. This would make perfect sense in regards to Big Boss (or in the time period's case, John) lying about his age in order to participate in World War II (Certainly moreso than Liquid stating in-game that Big Boss was in his late fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles project was performed, as having to lie about age would be completely pointless [why bother lying about your age in regards to joining the military if your true age is already up and beyond the age limit requirement, anyways? I mean, assuming that Big Boss was indeed in his late fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles Project occured, I'm pretty sure that Big Boss would have been, at minimum, around 25-28 years of age by the time World War II started, and at maximum, 29-32 years of age by the time it ended.]. So I'm pretty sure that, thanks to that, then at least Big Boss's account on the MGS manual, if not the bios in themselves, would be considered canon. Not only that, but this also means that the whole thing about Big Boss being in his thirties was not a retcon at all, despite what many people popularly claim. Weedle McHairybug 04:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Metal Gear Solid Official Mission Handbook is NOT canon. None of the games or the database ever mention Big Boss serving in World War II or being Japanese-American. That handbook also says that Decoy Octopus was a Mexican CIA agent. Obviously, that's false.--Sknmak 13:36, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I really doubt the Metal Gear Solid 4 Database is all that canon, anyways. I mean, in that same source, Solidus was stated to have erased Raiden's memories, even though Metal Gear Solid 2 had not only revealed that it was actually The Patriots who had erased Raiden's memories, but his reactions when this was revealed implied that he was never aware of what the Patriots did and was legitimately upset when he discovered this. At best, the MGS4DB is in the gray area in terms of canon, so I really suggest you not use it to prove whether something's canon or not. Maybe if Metal Gear Solid 2 was given a remake, we could let that slide, but since it wasn't, MGS4DB, as far as I'm concerned, is in the gray area, at least.


 * Besides, my point was that even if it wasn't canon (It was when Metal Gear Solid was initially released, at least), the mere fact that it mentioned that Big Boss had lied about his age would have already discounted Liquid's statement about how he was in his fifties when the Les Enfants Terribles performed the project. Weedle McHairybug 13:49, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Since there seems to be no official sources for Big Boss's Japanese heritage (besides the controvertial Mission Handbook), I think we should just let the subject rest for now. We will have to assume that this has now been retconned away in favour of the Japanese assistant story during Les Enfants Terribles? (I have added this info to Solid and Liquid's article on how this explanation is possible). That is unless "Peace Walker" gives us any more details, but we will have to wait and see. --Bluerock 21:42, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough about the Japanese aspect. I'd argue that the part in his bio about fighting in World War II, at least was canon though. There isn't really anything to suggest that he didn't participate in World War II. Actually, Portable Ops even briefly referred to it at one point. When Elisa and Big Boss meet, Big Boss comments that Elisa was "pretty young" to be in Gene's Rebellion, and Elisa responds with: "You were out on the battlefield when you were my age, weren't you, Snake? Or should I say... Big Boss?" That line suggests that he had been fighting on the battlefield before even the Korean War, and possibility that Big Boss was fighting at a young age. Weedle McHairybug 22:48, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The MGS4DB isn't totally inaccurate. It is correct on most things like Dr. Madnar, Solid Snake and Sokolov. At the very least, it's more reliable than that handbook. Anyway, none of the games mention Big Boss serving in World War 2. Maybe he lied about his age to fight in Korea. We know he was born sometime in the 1930s. Maybe he was born in like 1936 and fought in Korea when he was fifteen. --Sknmak 13:40, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The main problem with your theory about serving in Korea at an early age is that Hideo Kojima implied in the Metal Gear Solid 3 commentaries that Big Boss (or rather, Naked Snake) at the time of the mission was 33-35 (he mentioned that Big Boss was the same age as Solid Snake in Metal Gear Solid 2 during the time of the Virtuous Mission.), going by that, as well as the fact that US Involvement in the Korean War started in 1950, would make Big Boss 19 at the earliest, and at the latest 22 (19's iffy, since whether that's eligible depends on whether it is 18 or 21 that one has to enlist). That's even assuming that Big Boss participated right at the start of the Korean War instead of being moved in at some point between 1951 and 1953. Also, in Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops, Elisa mentioned that Big Boss might have been around her age when he was on the battlefield (and Elisa is heavily implied to have five years left until she reached Adulthood, or at least sexual maturity.), this means that Big Boss would most likely have been significantly below the age range that he was placed in (like about thirteen or sixteen, if not younger). Her just mentioning the Korean War wouldn't really make sense seeing how 19-22 is not really below the age limit (it's between/above), while as the conversation was meant to imply that it was supposed to be younger than the age limit by a significant amount (As Elisa/Ursula was implied to be significantly underage.). Weedle McHairybug 16:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Elisa/Ursuala was ever really implied to be younger than her late teens, certainly not underage anyway. Campbell would still consider her a bit young for Big Boss, and Big Boss would still see her as a kid. --Bluerock 19:51, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Campbell kinda mentioned something about her waiting five years," or something like that. Weedle McHairybug 19:56, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but that doesn't mean 5 years until she turns 18. Anyway, as for the Official Mission Handbook, the author did take a few liberties in regards to fleshing out some of the characters backgrounds, especially Decoy Octopus. Also, there was hardly any info on Big Boss's early years, except for "BEST SOLDIER EVER" and being a member of like a bajillion special forces groups. Kojima probably wasn't planning to expand on Big Boss's history back then so he gave the author permission to do so (or Konami did anyway). Therefore, I don't think we can say he participated in World War II until it is officially said so, however possible it may be. --Bluerock 20:01, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Still, the part on Big Boss lying about his age to serve in WWII was a pretty big hint that he was born in the 1930s. Weedle McHairybug 20:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, in the official character biographies for MGS1, Big Boss is stated to have "died" in his 70s (in 1999), so he could have been born anywhere in the 1920s based on this. But Kojima has retconned him to be a decade younger apparently. --Bluerock 20:11, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is also the reason that Liquid claimed he was in his late 50s during the Les Enfants Terribles project. --Bluerock 20:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll be darned. Although it is strange that Kojima didn't seem to correct the writer in regards to that issue. I know Kojima didn't plan on expand on Big Boss's history, but that still doesn't explain why he didn't correct the guy when he wrote the manual? If he is indeed involved in the creation of the manual in the first place, why let him claim he was born in the 1930s, which at the same time would imply that he was defeated in his sixties. Weedle McHairybug 20:27, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I doubt that Kojima really took the time to proofread the book, it is afterall a strategy guide and not a definitive encyclopedia of info (having said that, the MGS4 database is pretty contradictory itself.) Also, his foreword in the book was not written specifically for the guide, its just a random passage he wrote on the awesomeness of Metal Gear Solid. Its funny though that the author of the book retroactively got Big Boss's age correct. --Bluerock 20:35, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Solid Snake Naked Snake appearance and Age
How would tell the difference between Solid Snake and Naked Snake(MGS3) second opinion. In terns of personallity and appearance? If Big Boss was in his late fifties. Should he be older than The Boss? He would at least 41 or 43 in MGS3.
 * Big Boss was implied to be in his late-20s to early-30s during MGS3, since he was born sometime in the 1930s (as shown on his grave stone in MGS4). --Bluerock 20:50, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Should we list Big Boss's Birthdate as 1935?
In Peace Walker, Galvez, or rather, Vladimir Zadornov, after revealing both his true nature and his actual plan for the MSF's mission, states that Big Boss is going to die at age 39, just like El Che, implying that Big Boss was born in 1935. I was wondering if we should add it in, as the last time I tried to do evidence towards a character's age (Elisa/Ursula being 13-16, due to Campbell stating she had six years until she reached sexual maturity), it was removed due to original research. Weedle McHairybug 18:29, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * doesn't it strike anyone else as preposterous that big boss would be in the green berets at 10-12. the fact you used 10 to 12 shows that you didn't know for certain. Why do you think Big Boss was there at the start of the war anyway?? --Drawde83 22:22, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe he meant he "died" when he killed the Boss? "Ever since I killed the Boss with my own hands... I was already dead." This would add another 10 years to his life, which would mean he became a Green Beret at age 20 or 22. Also, how much of this information did you get from the actual games, and not outdated manuels? -John- 11:04, June 17, 2010