Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-166.137.88.23-20130610185107/@comment-42.98.54.59-20130629155022

Soul reaper wrote:

Weedle McHairybug wrote:

42.98.54.59 wrote: Misterbunnsy wrote: 42.98.54.59 wrote: Weedle McHairybug wrote: Misterbunnsy wrote: 1.64.167.166 wrote: Misterbunnsy wrote: Weedle McHairybug wrote: Misterbunnsy wrote: Also, everybody is claiming that Liquid has no reason to be in Afghanistan or even the Middle East during this time of his life.

But in the briefing for MGS1, when discussing Liquid Snake, Campbell mentions he fought in the Gulf War with the SAS as a teenager. "His job was to track down and destroy mobile SCUD missile launching platforms."

He goes on to mention that Snake was in Western Iraq with a platoon of Green Berets, with Snake replying "I was just a kid myself back then."

And finally, Campbell states that "The details are classified, but it seems that originially he penetrated the Middle East as a sleeper for the SIS." That's the British Secret Intelligence Service.

Now since all this is taking place around the time that the Snakes are kids, there's no way to say that Liquid could not possibly be in the Middle East around this time.

In case anybody is interested, the full game script (including the briefing I am referring to) can be read here: http://au.ign.com/faqs/2004/metal-gear-solid-game-script-psx-506043 Didn't it also state that Liquid joined the SAS at 18 years old? He'd still need to be in the UK to join the organization. Regardless, when an actual detailed cast listing is revealed, whether officially (like it was with the TGS2009 unveilment of Peace Walker) or via a leak (like the MGS3 voice casting sheet), we'll see whether to merge Eli with Liquid. Until then, we have to treat them as separate. Plus, I think "kid" in this context meant "late teenager, not quite an adult," since the Gulf War was in 1991-1994. Well, people will continue to try and add MGSV to Liquid's appearances regardless, but you're right, we can't confirm anything yet.

And with the SAS thing, again, you are right: he joined at 18 years old, the youngest person to serve in the SAS.

But my point with that, and the kid thing (which again, could be regarded as late teens) is that these organisations may have no qualms about enlisting the services of younger people in order to pursue their interests.

While it is a stretch, I think that in the Metal Gear-verse, it is possible that SIS would enlist the assistance of teenage Liquid in order to infiltrate the Middle East as a sleeper agent.

Especially with Cipher wanting to keep tabs on Big Boss. And especially with Liquid being the "son" of Big Boss. With an IQ of 180, and his age meaning he can avoid attention, there is potential there I think. But then the twin Snakes were created to be outstanding soldiers to begin with, so isnt it justified that they got all the dangerous jobs, and even more so when (as you said) these organisations' top priorities is their own interest. After all, only a handful few were aware of the story behind the birth of the twin Snakes, so if one of them gone missing, they can still cover up. Glad to see my idea still got through somehow, even with my awful explaining.

With Cipher's top priority being to locate and keep track of Big Boss (as well as considering Kaz's imprisonment in Afghanistan), then it seems likely to me that Liquid could be a prime candidate to trail Big Boss in the Middle East, especially considering their relationship.

Maybe, although considering how Liquid implies in In the Darkness of Shadow Moses that he had been trying to search for the Patriots for quite some time with the obvious intention of exacting revenge against them, I wouldn't be surprised if Liquid, like Kaz before him, ended up betrayed by Cipher and decided to kill them off as well as Big Boss. Speaking of the mutual betrayal of the Patriots and their agents, let's not forget that happened to Solidus, the former president selected by Patriots turned Sons of Liberty leader. So to say Liquid begun as a Patriot's agent (just like Solid and Solidus) and betray them later is reasonable. Oh perhaps someone can remind me - Liquid was still Patriots' agent when he join FOXHOUND right? I am asking because I am still scretching my head how Big Boss and Kaz get into FOXHOUND after their long fight against the Patriots. I think it's entirely possible and even probable that Liquid can start out as a Patriot agent and perhaps feel betrayed later when he is told he is the inferior brother.

As far as we know at the moment, Liquid is not a Patriots Agent at any point. This is just speculation. At the time that he joins FOXHOUND, in 2000, Solid Snake and Campbell have left the unit, and Liquid is already under the impression that he is the inferior clone. Shortly after joining, he becomes FOXHOUND's field commander and that leads into the insurrection he leads at Shadow Moses in 2005 eventually.

It is strange that Big Boss can manage to retake control of FOXHOUND after the mission of revenge he leads against the Patriots in the 80s. Time will tell. Yup - because Kojima is the kind of writer who writes the story without spilling all the details in one go. Look at how Octacon's family background were built up bit by bit along MGS series and you will see what I mean. Every time, Kojima just add in details that has not been mentioned (instead of retconing what has been mentioned). Many people complain about Kojima re-writing the series' history, but if they go through the details more carefully, they will see that the only times he can be found re-writing the in-game history are when it touches the original MG and MG2SS games.

By extension, since Liquid's background remains "highly classified", it means there are lots of room for Kojima to fill in the blanks.

Off-topic, reading through all these, I think we deserve to be Kojima's story board advisors.

You're right about the re-writes. Actually, the only genuine retcons/re-writes I can think of that directly relate to the MGS series and not the MSX2 games are Zero manning the Patriots instead of the DCI (the latter being strongly implied in the ending to MGS3), possibly most of the history lesson lectures from Big Mama, Liquid Ocelot, and Big Boss regarding Big Boss's involvement with the Patriots (you can thank Peace Walker for that where it implied he didn't even have any former connections to the Patriots going by his odd reaction to Paz's explanation of their separation, acting as though he wasn't even familiar with it, not to mention claiming he was "unsure" about Zero's connection to the group.). Possibly even the bit about the Patriots dying over a century prior (and I mean that because MGS3 revealed that they had most likely died during the Great Depression, meaning it would have been seventy years since they died in MGS2, not a century).

Actually, come to think of it, didn't the developers imply that Naked Snake during Operation Snake Eater was about the age of Solid Snake during MGS2? That's probably retconned either way with Peace Walker claiming that he was 39 years old during the events of the game (late 1974). I always took BB's reactions in Peace Walker as him being surprised at Paz knowing so much, and at how much the Patriots had grown since he left. I mean, they formed in 1970 right? Then the incident that caused him to leave happened in 72, but we have no idea how powerful they were at that point. By 74 their influence had grown a great deal and were using the codename Cipher. I always felt he was surprised that it grew so quickly and had evolved so much and that he was shocked that Zero could be capable of so much.

MGS2 did imply that Big Boss was significantly older than we now know him to be. It seemed to me that was the initial reason behind the idea of Snake's accelerated ageing (Liquid said something about Snake getting old and related it to the clones being made from genes taken from Big Boss in his 50s).

Still, regarding the relationship between Big Boss and the Patriots, MGSV will likely clear up some of the confusion caused by Peace Walker. That said it'll likely raise more questions. In the end of MPO it was mentioned that Zero tricked the DCI to think that he is targeted by the nuke and brought the Philosophers' documents with him to the shelter, and then Ocelot (who was working for Zero) took advantage, killed him, took everything. Then at the post-credit phone call, Ocelot joined Zero to creat the Patriots, on condition that Big Boss will be included as a Patriot. Then like you said, BB left after the Twin Snakes were created in 1972 and then comes MGSPW.

But for the Patriots/Philosophers dying 100yrs before MGS2, that as much I can say - in the beginning of Act 2 of MGS4 (right after Campbell's mission briefing), Snake mentioned that the data they found regarding the Patriots is "a load of crap" and he goes as far as saying something like "a bunch of people dying 100yrs ago? Give me a break!". In my opinion, Kojima did come up with a valid explanation and I will not consider this a re-write.

As for Big Boss' age, can anyone tell more precisely where in MGS3 did Kojima imply BB to be about 35 at the time? I can only recall two scenes where BB's age was mentioned, one time by Liquid on top of MG Rex (and we know Liquid is misinformed on a least himself being the recessive clone, which opened the door for him to be wrong on BB's actual age) and the other being Zadornov's comment during PW (39 in late 1974).

For the accelerated aging, the Twin Snakes, as mentioned by Naomi before Snake fights Laughing Octopus, were created with shortened telomeres regardless of the age of the original to begin with (which shortened their age like the Werner's syndrome patients, who also show accelerated aging) and Naomi also mentioned other biological measures that were in place to make sure BB's children's "natural life span" is shorter than a normal individual. You can perhaps go back to the above mentioned cutscenes for details.