Talk:Venom Snake

This is not confirmed, going to delete the page.UnitedPhysics (talk) 00:11, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Posted the information on the Big Boss talk page. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:55, August 23, 2015 (UTC)

Premature
All this info should be moved back until the game is actually out. Sure the guide heavily hints at this and it's probably true, but we have no official confirmation and the game isn't out yet so that we can check ourselves. This is still speculation. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 17:35, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * I doubt the guide would not have cited scenes from that game if it was made up. We're keeping it in here. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:42, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying they made it up, I'm saying that the guide is not confirmation. Only the game is. The guide may strongly hint at this, but it still not confirmed at all. As much as it is probably super true. This is still speculation, even in the guide it's presented as such. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 17:49, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Zero's got it right, none of the info in that section of the guide is really a confirmation, it's not even presented as a confirmation, it's presented as nothing more than speculation, making Venom Snake and Big Boss have separate pages when the two being different beings is not confirmed is totally unnecessary and premature at this time and doing so this early on insisting that it was confirmed and is necessary isn't going to do much but make you look like a fool.Kornflakes89 (talk) 18:12, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * They already cited scenes from the game. And besides, technically, they only didn't confirm whether Ishmael is Big Boss or not (which is only because Kojima Productions and Konami forbade the writers of the guide to actually reveal his identity directly, but that's another topic). When a DNA test failed between Venom Snake and Eli, which they directly cited, and they had Venom Snake being visible in a spy mirror when Ocelot tells Eli that his father "isn't around", that's more than enough confirmation that he's NOT Big Boss. We don't know his identity (ie, we don't know if he's the medic or not), but that doesn't mean we should assume he's Big Boss, since the guide made it pretty explicit in that scene that he's not (failing a DNA test with what is supposed to be your clone is as confirmed as one can possibly get to him not being Big Boss). At least be thankful that I haven't merged Ishmael with Big Boss yet, even if I were able to, since unlike with Venom Snake not being Big Boss, that bit ISN'T confirmed at all, and at least be thankful I didn't merge the stuff about Venom Snake into the medic's article. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 18:18, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not even going to bother reading that, it's like talking to a brick wall, nothing you can say can alter the fact that this is premature and shouldn't have been done until the game has been released when we'd know it for absolute fact, Bluerock agrees and said to revert it until the game is released.Kornflakes89 (talk)
 * Fine. Reverted back to a redirect until the game's launch. But I'm NOT putting the Venom Snake-related material back into the Big Boss article. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:01, August 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Which was exactly what you were told to do, are you seriously so immature that you'll refuse to do what a mod asked you to do just to satisfy your habit of jumping to conclusions and taking speculation as confirmed facts? It was premature, there is no confirmation that Venom Snake is not Big Boss, therefor the Venom Snake material belongs in the Big Boss page until the game is released and this can be confirmed or denied.Kornflakes89 (talk)
 * And I did revert. It's back to a redirect to Big Boss's article, right? Well, that's a revert, just as Bluerock said. But that DOESN'T mean I am obligated to place all of those things back on the Big Boss article. And for the record, a failed DNA test = confirmation. It's called common sense. Maybe you should learn it sometime, instead of constantly insisting we get more information, since sometimes things don't need to be said. And BTW, suppose the guide and I are correct and Venom Snake is indeed not Big Boss, what will you do then? I would hope you would actually apologize and actually acknowledge I was right after all those times you constantly called me an idiot, maybe actually acknowledge you were wrong in trying to claim I was wrong, but I would suspect that would not be the case. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 23:10, August 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Except that's not how it was before, the Venom Snake info belongs on the Big Boss page until the game is released and Venom being/not being Big Boss can be confirmed with credible, factual proof, not a leaked guide that gives conflicting information. So I should stop insisting that we wait for more information...when the source you're citing to claim this is fact has conflicting statements on the matter? It says that Venom is not Big Boss, but also says that Venom is Big Boss and with said guide having said conflicting statements you're choosing to take the first one as fact and ignoring the second one? If you're not seeing why I'm implying you're not as bright as you say you are after reading (and hopefully understanding) that, then you've got a bad realization that will either hit you like a truck or not at all.

You do know that DNA tests can give false positives/negatives, same as pregnancy tests, drug tests or virus scans, right?

What will I do if Venom is not Big Boss? Nothing, I don't apologize for implying someone isn't very smart when they do and say things that aren't very smart.Kornflakes89 (talk)

Personality
> Big Boss' innate desire for conflict, however, was amplified in Venom Snake

Is it? Judging by cut dialogue, he wanted to see future without war conflicts at all  https://youtu.be/9JbUfSICGiU


 * That video has been taken down. GZulu (talk) 23:03, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Outer Heaven
The ending time line clearly staes Outer Heaven was Big Boss's formation but Phantom died at the hands of Snake. So is it wrong to say Venom opted to form outer heaven

Why does Venom now have Big Boss' MG1 photo?


 * SOCOM insisted that the Big Boss in MG1 is not actually Big Boss. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:57, September 14, 2015 (UTC)

Height and weight
Just wondering where did this information of his height being "194cm (6'4")" and his weight being "105kg"?Velociraptor90 (talk) 10:58, September 10, 2015 (UTC)

Venom's role in the Outer Heaven uprising
I just registered to say this. This is speculation without any evidence.



 "Venom by this stage had taken on Outer Heaven as his own and was deviating from big bosses plans and vision of a military nation without boarders [...] with the true objective of assassinating Venom in order to prevent the world ever discovering he had a phantom and wasn't the one behind all the history venom had created"

 Therere is a voice recording in the game that's only available through datamining that completly contradicts this.

 The video was removed from youtube but here's the transcript.



"I haven't forgotten what you told me Boss. We have no tomorrow, but there is still hope for the future. In our struggle to survive the present, we push the future further away. Will I see it in my lifetime? Probably not. Which means there is no time to waste. Some day the world will no longer need us, no need for the gun or the hand to pull the trigger. I have to drag out this demon inside me and build a better future. That's what I...heh...what we will leave as our legacy. Another mission, right Boss?"



 JoJoFine (talk) 17:25, September 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * While I completely agree with you (nothing I can see suggests Venom deviated from Big Boss' plan), I don't think we should be concerning ourselves with the datamined message. It's not in the game, potentially for a reason, so we shouldn't concern ourselves with it. --Fantomas (talk) 17:38, September 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * The tape where Big Boss says he is proud of Venom is called Indrude N1313 and theres an outer heaven logo on the background so Big Boss didn't think he went into buisnese for him self.

Idea concerning Venom
Most people currently thing Venom is the Big Boss at the end of MG1. However I just played the mission where you rescue the kids from the mine and somehow just the way Venom acts seems to lean towards the Big Boss in MG2, plus it would make the easter egg conversation about the robtic arm somewhat canon it would just have the infomation about how he got it wrong. I'm not saying this proves anything but as I was watching he way he acted with the kids through the mission and the cutscene at the end it just made me think about how the kids in Zanzibarland seem to like Big Boss so much and how he wanted to protect them, assuming of course I remember MG2 it's been awhile since I played it so I might remember wrong. I was glancing through the guide and noticed that completing the secret mission unlocs the use of Zanzibar for use with your emblem so maybe that could be considered more evidence towards my idea. GrimmShadows (talk) 21:31, September 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * The timeline at the end of the game confirms Venom was the Big Boss in Metal Gear 1. --Fantomas (talk) 21:50, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Ground Zeroes appearance
Canon or not? Clearly, this is gonna become an issue of contention at some point, so I'm starting a discussion about it so that a consensus can be established. While, we're at it, let's also decide whether to consider the passport canon.

Some comments from the revision history of the article:

''His model in Ground Zeroes is a placeholder. There is no "canon" version of who Venom Snake was before the transformation''

GZ's medic's face was deliberately obscured, canonically he appeared as each individual player's avatar which obviously could not be retroactively or uniformly shown in GZ.

VS

Even in the unmodified versions of Ground Zeroes, it's pretty obvious from the little we see of his face that he's caucasian.

''That's a fake passport. I wouldn't call it reliable. Also, you can see the medic's hair and the side of his face in Ground Zeroes. His hair is brown and his skin is clearly white.''

--Bluerock (talk) 21:01, September 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * The medic may have been caucasian but there is no canon identity for Venom Snake. TPP essentially retcons GZ by replacing the placeholder model with the player's avatar. The whole point is that Venom Snake is meant to represent the player's avatar (Kojima even says so), meaning that any previous appearance he may have had should be treated as non-canon. It's no different than how future games of MGS retconned various details in the past, only this time it happened under the same numerical title. Given the intended nature of Venom Snake's conception and how the medic's appearance was purposefully obscured, his GZ model should be treated as a placeholder with Venom not having an actual "canon" appearance. DementedP (talk) 07:42, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * That also includes the player choosing to make the medic look 30 or 50 in 1975. Someone born in 1932 would not look 30 in 1975. The passport is canon. The problem is it's supposed to be a fake passport for Big Boss. We have no clue where or what year the medic was born.--173.239.17.60 22:00, September 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Since the passport uses his real name, photo, and day/month of birth (albeit selected by the player), it would seem to imply that the passport details are indeed those of the medic, even if Big Boss is using it to fake his own identity. With nothing to really dispute this, I think it's fair to assume this is the case. Since he has no canon GZ physical appearance, what age the player makes him look like doesn't seem relevant. Just my opinion anyway. --Bluerock (talk) 10:14, October 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * I replayed through the Truth mission and grabbed a lot of screen caps for the article, so can I use them? I made the avatar as 'canon' as possible to the medic from GZ. Here's a shot of him in the menu, as well as ingame, which i've added a beard and scars to:


 * 12140645_1013846172009687_3051982434035952936_n.jpg
 * 12118982_1013824088678562_6606925082568356661_n.jpg




 * In games like Skyim and other RPG's where the player character is a blank avatar, the wiki pages use the character's default appearance, or whatever was used in promotional material. Since all we've got to go off is the placeholder face (which is pretty detailed), then I suggest we use that. Obviously for things like the passport we can say, 'The name and birthday are up to player discretion', or something like that. Same with whatever face players decide to give him. But for the purposes of this article I suggest we use this model? ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 20:15, October 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Alright so i've edited the article without adding too much. Hope this pleases both sides of the fence. We have something to represent the pre-decoy Venom, without just uising another random insert as a character. This is about as canon as we'll get. I can edit the images, such as the hospital one further, giving him longer hair like he has post surgery, if you guys want? It'd look better, but it would be a doctored image and i'm not sure what the policy on using those here is. ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 21:57, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Great job at waiting for input before doing it, REALLY great job. 86.132.200.1 22:06, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

It's not like every change has to be pre-approved. If the everyone dissagrees and wants Venom to remain more anonymous then they can change it. I'm not the only voice here. However with a character as important as this, I figure the more info the better. Also, if anyone wants the sliders for his face so they can take better pictures or just to play as him, message me and i'll give you them :) ThatDamnScottishGuy (talk) 22:16, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Aliases
Is he not also Punished? Find it odd that that alias would be left out.

00:10, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's in the alias list in the infobox. I've also restored the name in the intro as "Punished "Venom" Snake", as per the opening credits to each mission. Don't forget to make a new subheading when discussing a different topic to above. --Bluerock (talk) 07:25, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's strange that he's never called Punished in the game. At least Ocelot calls him Venom once. --100.3.56.214 13:48, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Metal Gear 1 Big Boss
Since the Big Boss in MG1 is now retconned to be Venom Snake, shouldn't we delete the picture of him from the Big Boss page and move it to this one? Just a thought. 69.11.85.236 03:38, October 1, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you're referring to the infobox image, then no, because that specific image taken from the Japanese MG1 manual depicts FOXHOUND commander Big Boss, as noted in the accompanying biography, not Outer Heaven leader Big Boss. I did explain this in the edit summary, when I reverted the previous image move. The only depictions of Venom Snake in MG1 (via retcon) is the 8-bit sprite boss character, and possibly the walking cane-holding silhouette among the Outer Heaven mercenaries (also from the Japanese manual). --Bluerock (talk) 09:50, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Physical appearance circa 1995
If Operation Intrude N313 takes place in 1995, then why does Venom still have the same appearance he had during the events of the phantom pain?--73.209.31.44 00:40, October 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * The scene should not be taken too literally. The exact time is deliberately vague, and Venom disappears into fog after smashing the mirror. --Bluerock (talk) 09:53, October 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining that scene. --100.3.56.214 13:44, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Mother Base stats
I know it has Venom's Mother Base stats here, but I've tried finding him in my Mother Base roster to no avail. I can't remember whether or not he was actually in it, and if he was I can't find him in order to get his iDroid portrait. Can anyone confirm or deny his presence in Mother Base's unit roster?
 * His stats are not listed in the normal staff management feature, only during character selection for the mission sortie prep. --Bluerock (talk) 05:19, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Which Big Boss was which in Metal Gear?
We all know that the Big Boss that Snake fought and killed was Venom Snake. So its obvious that the original Big Boss was the one who said Snake and him would meet again.

I'm correct in assuming that the Big Boss on the support team was the original Big Boss?

Names with "middle name"
The names of the following pages are.

Venom Snake.

Revolver Ocelot.

Kazuhira Miller.

I know that the main names in the very first paragraph and in their infoboxes have the following:

Punished "Venom" Snake.

Revolver "Shalashaska" Ocelot.

Benedict "Kazuhira" Miller.

While I think this should stay this way for the first paragraph and the infoboxes, I don't think it would be wise to change them to this for the name of the page. Just in case it was being thought of.


 * I agree and I don't think I've heard about anyone saying this will be changed to suit the names in the first paragraph of each page, so they're likely to stay that way. DementedP (talk) 21:49, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

When was Venom Snake placed in a medically induced coma, when did he awake and when did he receive the "Operation Intrude N313" tape?
According to the Truth tapes, in 1977 Zero asked if Venom had awoken at all in two years. Unless I'm mistaken, people don't naturally awake from a medically induced coma. Doctors bring them out of it which is what Ocelot did in 1984. Also, Ocelot mentions Volgin waking up to the real Big Boss but said that Venom Snake wasn't awake yet. I thought Volgin woke up when Venom did. Finally, an anonymous editor keeps saying that Venom Snake received the "Operation Intrude N313" tape in 1984 but this doesn't make sense. Why would he receive that tape eleven years before the operation took place? Can someone explain all this please? --100.3.56.214 18:54, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Really? Surprised you missed that. The entire part of the tapes about big boss being confused that he looked awake, with ocelot then saying that he's not actively concious, HEAVILY implies the coma is induced. Then there's also the line "We'll have to wake up your neighbour too", implying that they have control over the state of his coma. As for the Operation Intrude tape, that whole scene should be taken with a grain of salt as Big Boss also walks into a void filled with smoke immediatly after, but we don't regard that as canoniclly happening in the article. Regardless, i'm going to edit the information back in that the coma is artificially induced. Edit: For the future, can we please keep debates inside of the talk page instead of having an edit war? It makes it much easier to resolve and makes it much less confusing for someone viewing the page multiple times. Thanks. 69.11.85.236 21:15, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Also not sure of the science behind it, but i've heard of cases of people becoming concious during surgery, even after being dosed with anaesthesia; a.k.a an induced coma. So yes it is possible in some cases. 69.11.85.236 21:31, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I missed it. Shock and awe. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. --100.3.56.214 22:49, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hold on a minute. While it's certainly apparent that at the very least the final stages of Venom's coma were induced by Ocelot, that by no means makes the entire 9 year coma induced at all. There's no evidence to suggest that and as such the article shouldn't suggest that the entirety of the coma was induced. Paranoid Donkey (talk) 23:50, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

So did Venom Snake listen to the "Operation Intrude N313" tape in 1984?
An IP keeps saying yes. I thought it was a time skip (why name a tape after an operation that takes place 11 years later?) but the IP says no. Bluerock said use the talk page to avoid edit wars so that's what I'm doing. --100.3.56.214 21:56, October 28, 2015 (UTC)

After Venom Snake is finished listerning to Big Boss, its in the same scene when he takes the tape out and flips it over to see it says Operation Intrude N313, it doesnt go to black between after he listerns to Big Boss and when he flips the tape and sees Operation N313. There is evidence of a time skip after he places it in the bitcorder.

At what point should Venom Snake be considered Big Boss?
We all know that even though Venom Snake is not the same Big Boss who was the operative in Operation Snake Eater and the Peace Walker Incident, we can all agree that Venom Snake is worthy of the title Big Boss and it is his title just as much as it is Naked Snake's title.

Would you say he is known as Big Boss when he wakes up from the coma and everyone sees him as Big Boss or when the real Big Boss says "Im Big Boss and you are too", "From here on out youre Big Boss"? Although I guess its up to personal interpretation and personal perspective.

In any case Punsished "Venom" Snake is Big Boss, a title he goes by from the moment he woke up from the coma in 1984 right to the end of his life in 1995 at the hands of Solid Snake.