Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-166.137.88.23-20130610185107/@comment-1672596-20130622101823

DementedP wrote: Bluerock wrote:

80.75.99.120 wrote: Where is that function of the new FOXDIE explained? Way I understood it was basically same kind of FOXDIE than 9 years before (which could kill unharmed victim), only targets were different.

It's speculation. I said it may have functioned like that to explain why Liquid wasn't affected immediately. It targets people by their DNA, same as the earlier form, but beyond that, who knows. Add on the fact that it took a long while before Eva was affected as well. My guess with Ocelot is that it has to do with the fact that the nanomachines inside him didn't register with the new FOXDIE immediately. Not so much out of Liquid "possessing" him, but the AIs probably took the logical standpoint of going for Ocelot's nanomachine signature and didn't expect how much he really internalized the Liquid role.

As for the comment that Ocelot is more like a "Boba Fett" in comparison to Liquid's "Darth Vader", I would have to respectfully disagree. Ocelot has been well-regarded as a long-running antagonist and a relentlessly deceitful mastermind to the point that he essentially became the quintessential antagonist outside of Zero and his Patriot AIs. Liquid was great as a personal mirror to Solid Snake, but Ocelot is a whole different story. To dismiss him as merely having the role of a right-hand man would be playing right into the kind of scheme that Ocelot oh so commonly purported throughout the series, only to pop up at the end turn the whole situation around its head. Ocelot may have been less of a "personal" villain, but that's exactly what made his reaction in MGS4 so perfect in the end. His final acknowledgement towards Solid Snake (in comparison to his childlike treatment towards him in MGS1) is a huge sign of respect on his part. Did it ever occur to anyone that Kojima may have retconned the whole Liquid possession, just so he could forcibly put these two very distant characters (Snake and Ocelot) against each other and finally settle things with a glorious fistfight? Especially in light of Ocelot's depiction in MGS3 as one of the 3 notable characters that played a huge role in fulfilling The Boss's mission (Big Boss and Eva being the other two) where disminishing his role in MGS4 would've been an utter cop-out and a blatant misfire?

As for the ruse being so "complicated", it's actually so simple: the Patriots AIs underestimated Ocelot because they thought he was merely Liquid 2.0. That's right, the Patriots AI paid less attention to him because they thought he was Liquid Snake. Had they known that Ocelot was very much conscious and actually acting the way he did based on his own choice of will, they would've focused all their resources on getting rid of him as best as they could and actually taking him more seriously as a threat. Instead, they went with the same old FOXDIE route (the same thing from Liquid) and just left it at that.

Also the idea that Ocelot was being controlled against his will? I've said it once, I'll say it again, who's to say that Ocelot was against Liquid's mentality in regards to fulfilling Big Boss's dream? Heck Ocelot had all the incentive to do it. Let's not forget that Ocelot joined FOXHOUND specifically because of his admiration for Big Boss, not to mention intentionally joining Liquid's side due to being a clone nonetheless. Also one major difference between Liquid's Outer Heaven and Ocelot's Outer Heaven is that Liquid wanted to practically rule the world through deterrence and monopolizing warfare. Ocelot? The guy just wanted chaos and anarchy because of his own twisted sense and desire for freedom in light of the Patriots' rule (something that Big Boss himself was against in terms of how he finally came to understand what The Boss had wanted).

I don't know, I just find it ridiculous how people keep insisting that Liquid somehow had more presence as a world-encompassing antagonist over Ocelot especially considering how Ocelot himself was not only the son of The Boss, he was also a friendly rival of Big Boss (practically reaching a stalemate in their eventual CQC battle) and finally, one of the founding members of The Patriots itself. To ignore his reputation as a manipulative wild card and one of the most influential characters in the series is pure denial and an overt display of one's bias against the character. Maybe, although the idea that "Liquid Ocelot" was faking it to fool the Patriots' AIs seems to contradict that the S3 Plan was a resounding success, of which the entire point of the exercise was to demonstrate how humanity's will was destined to be shaped. That requires a significant amount of fundamental understanding on how human nature works, otherwise the S3 Plan would have failed before it started. Heck, even Solid Snake, who was pretty much stated to be the wild card of the mission in both the game itself and supplementary materials such as the director's commentary, was easily manipulated by the S3 Plan, as strongly implied by the AI's speech to Raiden (such as claiming that the entire exercise was "a resounding success" despite claiming earlier that Solid Snake's presence alone was contaminating the project) and even the fact that they were able to leave a fake trace to them.