Talk:Shadow Moses Island

Shadow Moses Island Images.
There are now some images from MGS4 of Shadow Moses Island.

There already were images of Shadow Moses from MGS4. We did not need more. --Fantomas 12:55, February 24, 2010 (UTC)Ok thats fine then Kennedy 3421 10:23, March 9, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 Why can't there be some more images from MGS4 ?Kennedy 3421 11:55, March 28, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421

Why have the Images of Snake removed? Kennedy 3421 02:38, April 29, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421
 * Here's why: they were not needed, we have enough pictures here as it is. More reasons: The first was an image we basically already have, of the "front" of the facility, except it had Snake in the Assassin garb slap-bang in the middle of it, making it look horrible and un-professional. The second was of the snowfield, but it had been taken when a blizzard had hit, making it essentially an image of pure white, again with Snake in the Assassin garb slap-bang in the middle of it, making it look horrible and un-professional. I don't know what your obsession is with thinking we need more pictures of Shadow Moses, but we don't. The page is fine. --Fantomas 06:04, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok I was trying to help this encyclopedia I am not Obsessed with these Images. Its When I got Metal Gear Solid 4 I was Disappointed with this page not having the proper information or sources about the game. It frustrated me because this encyclopedia was where I learned several things about Metal Gear Solid 4 Ok then if we do not need the pictures that fine then. I was just trying to help and yet I get into trouble for that. I thought having a image of Snake would help the page. Im sorry about the trouble caused. Kennedy 3421 05:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Whitmore 8621
 * Ok I was trying to help this encyclopedia I am not Obsessed with these Images. Its When I got Metal Gear Solid 4 I was Disappointed with this page not having the proper information or sources about the game. It frustrated me because this encyclopedia was where I learned several things about Metal Gear Solid 4 Ok then if we do not need the pictures that fine then. I was just trying to help and yet I get into trouble for that. I thought having a image of Snake would help the page. Im sorry about the trouble caused. Kennedy 3421 05:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)Whitmore 8621


 * Fanatomas last year this page was nothing until I decided to fix it up with more detail the main MGS4 Shadow Moses image, I took that image myself and took it off the PS3 and used uploaded because this encyclopedia had losts of missing information and junk in my opinon. Such as using that codec image from the Metal Gear 2 non canon image of Solid Snake looking like Mel Gibson.
 * So in other words if it were not for me, in some ways this web site would be not where it is today. Kennedy 3421 05:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421


 * I added 1920*1080 HD pictures of Shadow Moses from Metal Gear Solid 4. Do NOT remove them please. It is needed for many people who want to see what has changed between the original version (MGS) and the MGS4 version. Also, it's more logical to have pictures when you speak about locations from a game...
 * Speaking about a game without showing pictures make no sens. Yoann718 09:06, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * We do need more location shots. The reason there are so few is due to the difficulty of getting decent quality images. Images showing Life Guages, Soliton Radars, and Snake standing right in the centre of certain shots, may need replacing as they don't necessarily look that good in the main article. Some also need reorganizing for the sake of presentation and avoiding clutter. Therefore, don't be too offended if these images are replaced in the future. --Bluerock 09:38, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * It would be better if images were taken in First Person view--Soul reaper 09:45, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, of course it will be better to take them in First Person view or without all those GUI.
 * But how can I have a decent First Person view? With the camera, there is still all those GUI.
 * Maybe if I take them with the camera, and then I'll "take a screenshot" with the PS3 XMB?
 * Let me try that, and if it's working great, I'll change all those pictures ;)
 * And by the way, how to suppress pictures I've uploaded here? Or they will always remain on the wiki?
 * Yoann718 09:56, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * For the time being, you can go to the image's page and select upload new version of file. The older photo can be deleted later if necessary. Although not perfect, the MGS4 in-game camera won't display any GUI when you take a shot, but an MGS4 logo will be placed in the bottom right hand corner. --Bluerock 10:26, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Everything will be fixed now :)
 * 1920*1080p HD pictures from the Camera, without MGS4 logo.
 * And you can request any kind of picture in my talk page ^_^.Yoann718 11:05, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Much appreciated. --Bluerock 11:25, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Frozen Lake
According to the MGS4 integral podcasts, there was originally supposed to be a frozen lake with gekko patrolling on top. This lead to the canyon via the rout in the rocks, but was cut from the final game. That should explain the blocked off path on the east side of the canyon.

Shadow Moses Island Image
Hey Bluerock,

Can i ask where you got the image of Shadow Moses?

Thanks

BillyKid1234


 * It is from the Briefing tape in MGS1. --Bluerock 10:32, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for using my screenshot Bluerock. I thought i recognised it. :-)
 * BillyKid1234 5:51pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)
 * BillyKid1234 5:51pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)


 * Thanks for taking it. It took a while to locate a good shot of the island itself. --Bluerock 17:24, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Your welcome. I'll be happy to take any more screenshots if any one has any requests.
 * BillyKid1234 7:00pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)
 * BillyKid1234 7:00pm, May 15, 2011 (GMT)

Again, too many photos
Too many photos in such a small space.


 * Indeed. Some of the more extraneous imagery can be placed into a gallery instead. --Bluerock 17:24, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Blast Furnace
Is that really the official line, that they built an entire foundry on Shadow Moses so they could fabricate production materials on-site? If so, this must be a pretty magical foundry if it doesn't need more raw material than it can output processed material; you'd actually need to ship more tonnage of iron ore than if you were shipping pre-made steel (or are we supposed to believe Shadow Moses has it's own mining operation, too?). And that's quite apart from the issue of building an entire foundry, manning it and powering it when you could just use those shipments to drop bundles of spare girders off. It strikes me as one of those cases where they try to explain something silly (why there's pits of molten metal in the base) and end up with something even more inexplicable than they started with. Evil Tim 07:41, June 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * It is indeed the official line, given in MGS1, and reiterated in the MGS4 Database. I'll post the relevant radio conversation. --Bluerock 08:36, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Soman gas color Codec.
Okay, I'm trying to find the Codec where (I think) Nastasha Romanenko explains to Snake about the various types of gas used to secure areas, as well as that the terrorists most likely dyed the gas color (its pure form being colorless and odorless) to make it easier to detect a leak, but I can't seem to get the Codec, especially not in Hal's lab. Can someone tell me where to find it? Weedle McHairybug 22:43, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Merge "Areas" and "Behind the scene"
It doesn't really make sens to have both sections which are talking about the same thing.

We can explain every change of differents areas in the "area section", rather than giving another section for it.Yoann718 13:12, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

The areas section basically talks about the various locations on Shadow Moses Island, as well as when Snake went to these facilities in general. The behind the scenes section was more in reference to differences not only in time, but also between Metal Gear Solid and Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes. That's a pretty big difference, so no, it shouldn't be merged. Weedle McHairybug 13:20, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I already know what the "Behind the scenes" section is talking about...

But I think it's just two sections which speak about the same things, areas of the game and history plus different versions of the same areas, should be merged. It still doesn't make sens to leave two sections like that. But if no one agree, then I leave as it is now.Yoann718 13:26, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * For this Wiki, the subjects are mainly written from an "in-universe" perspective, with gameplay, game staff, and "making-of" info placed in "Behind the scenes." In this article, the "areas" section is part of the former, and should ideally discuss the purpose of those locations and what occured within them, in terms of the story. The "Behind the scenes" section should only discuss how the areas' cosmetic designs have changed between games, and should, ideally, not be reiterating the same information. Having said that, they might need a little improvement to make this more clear. --Bluerock 14:57, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Therefore, I think we just need to remove every picture on the "Areas" location which show the area, and make a complete section of "Behind the Scenes" with all pictures and all locations available in every Metal Gear Solid game. Some Behind the Scenes pictures should be placed in area too, since they speak about the history or they don't really show to environment itself (I think about the crashed Hind D, which is a part of the story). Finally, we should find other names than "Differences between games" and "area".
 * "Area" section assume that we'll talk about 3D models and appearance. However, it's only history... I think it should be improved, like this:
 * == History ==
 * === Metal Gear Solid ===
 * -> We'll speak about docks, heliport, etc. without making a section for any area, while keeping all pictures and explanations. we can make "chapters", rather than sections by area names.
 * == Behind the Scenes ==
 * === Areas/ 3D Models/ Locations (choose the best) ===
 * Then, users will understand how different those sections are, and the idea of merging them won't even come to our mind =)
 * Yoann718 15:13, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe change "areas" to a general section discussing the warhead disposal facility, and its functions, as there's still quite a bit of info on the seperate locations within. Move the natural features like canyons and snowfields, to a seperate section discussing the geographical environment. Then, info on Snake's mission in each area be incoporated into the "history." Caution should be taken though, so that it is not simply a rehash of the Shadow Moses Incident article. We should have some good images throughout the article, but perhaps use the majority of location shots for the comparison between game 3D models.


 * ==History==
 * Keep as is, and add Snake's mission info from different areas; avoid too much detail


 * ==Geography==


 * ==Disposal facility==
 * Keep main facility info, describing function and purpose of the seperate areas as in-universe. Scrap event info between games.


 * ===Vehicles===
 * as is


 * ==Wildlife==
 * as is


 * ==Behind the scenes==
 * as is
 * ===3D environment changes (or something similar)===
 * changes in 3d location models between games, perhaps majority of images here from the different games.


 * Just an idea. --Bluerock 15:45, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the section "3D environment" don't have to tell "changes".
 * It's not only about comparison, but it's more about presenting each location in every Metal Gear Solid.
 * "Changes" seems like we'll only talk about what is different from a version to another, while "3D environments" will seems like we'll present the environments, and of course we'll speak about all changes made from a version to another.Yoann718 16:05, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now, hwo to do with a real example: the Cargo Dock.
 * "A small port located within a cavern on the south of the island used for the transfer of cargo. An elevator to the north of the dock leads up to the island's heliport.

In 2005, Solid Snake infiltrated the island's disposal facility via the cargo dock. In addition, Liquid Snake sent several Genome soldiers to guard the cargo dock prior to leaving in a Hind D to take down some F-16s, anticipating Snake's arrival via the area"
 * We can see two parts here, one speaking about the environment itself, and the other speaking about the story.
 * We can move the first paragraph to the "3D environment" from the ==behind the scenes==, while keeping the second paragraph for the story.
 * I think it's the best thing to do at the momentYoann718 16:10, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, its clear that there is no stopping you, Yoann718. Do what you wish, seeing how I'm in no position to stop you anyways. However, if you're going to move the environment stuff, can you at least not move the environment stuff where the environmental factors are stated in-universe (ie, the labs and the underground base or, well, any of the environmental descriptions of the areas that cite codec calls/dialogue stated in the game)? Weedle McHairybug 21:47, October 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I will only move descriptions that don't have any history related part, and which only describe the environment itself. Also, we'll need to modify a lot of descriptions.
 * Because the 3D Environment don't have to speak about the story itself, but just about the enviornments (what is present in this area? Differences between MGS, MGS TTS and MGS4? Etc.)
 * For example, the "Cave" description don't have any story related part:
 * A small cave providing passage between the 1st floor basement of the nuclear warhead storage building and the underground passage leading to the communication towers. The cave was inhabited by wolf dogs. 
 * Whereas the Snowfield have only a story and not even an environment description:
 * In 2005, Sniper Wolf battled Snake here for the second time. Nine years later, Wolf's doppelgänger...
 * We'll also need to change many descriptions in the "3D Environment" section, which are not so clear.
 * In the snowfield, for example:
 * There is no cargo truck in the area North of Comm Tower B. 
 * What does that mean? They speak about MGS4? It's false in every way ^_^
 * Or in the Lab:
 * The supercomputers in Hal Emmerich's old office now have transparent covers and a green illumination. 
 * They speak about MGS4 of course, but it's not clear for the reader.
 * By the way, I decided to move the 3D Environment stuff and not to leave it under the "Behind the scenes", it make more sens to me, since it's not really related to "behind the scenes". We speak about in-game stuff, not about development related stuff nor Beta versions of those areas.
 * Yoann718 07:12, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine. Go ahead and move the 3D Environment stuff if you want. Besides, I felt the moving of various environmental descriptions of the areas to behind the scenes was a big mistake, seeing how most, if not all of those environmental descriptions were stated in-game. If it was to be moved anywhere, it would have been the trivia section, since at least that section deals with in-universe info. Behind the scenes sections are supposed to be used for out-of-universe info, not in-universe info. Weedle McHairybug 08:42, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Checking Informations...
It is said "Forklift (2)".

The first Forklift is on the Dock area, but where is the second forklift?Yoann718 05:16, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I saw the second forklift in the Dock area. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * But it is the first one... (the one I have pictures from it) So where is the second one exactly? in a cut-scene?Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should create a "Genome Soldier" or an "Enemy" section, which will suit well to this article.Yoann718 06:10, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * We already have articles for Genome Soldier and Enemy Soldiers. Besides which, the article was intended for the island in general, not for when it was under siege by the Sons of Big Boss terrorist group or when Liquid Ocelot invaded the place. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * We can't really separate the Island and the time when it was under siege by the terrorist group.Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

The "Hind D" must appear in the Vehicle Section tooYoann718 06:10, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, no. The vehicle section was only intended for vehicles that were already present on the island before the terrorist takeover. The Hind D obviously wasn't present before the terrorist takeover (the terrorists owned it from the start, and it wasn't even belonging to them so much as the Gurlukovich Mercenaries). That's also the reason why we aren't listing the Gekkos or the Scarabs under the vehicle articles. Weedle McHairybug 08:21, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a problem with this. How to know if the M548/M1015 Full Tracked Cargo Vehicles was there before? Same with the Jeep, the snowmobile, the forklift. And Metal Gear Rex...
 * So I really think the Hind D should be placed here. if not, it's like something is missing.Yoann718 08:31, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Bottom Gallery
Most of the images don't need to be there, they'd make more sense in the Shadow Moses Incident article. If no one objects, I will remove them from the page.--Soul reaper 07:20, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. Same with many pictures in the "Area" section.
 * Also, the whole story in the Area section should be placed in the "Shadow Moses Incident" article, instead of staying here. However, a little summary of the "Shadow Moses Incident" can still remain here.Yoann718 07:32, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've moved the images into a gallery on the Incident page. Some of them will likely be put into different sections of the article as well. Why they were here in the first place, I have no idea.--Soul reaper 07:40, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably a mistake from someone ^_^
 * I think we should refer to the "Shadow Moses Incident" and every other event in the introduction of this article. It should avoid confusions as well as mistakes Yoann718 07:42, October 3, 2011 (UTC)